Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I cleaned off the shipping oils and checked the revolver out today. Everything seemed really sweet. As I said before, a nicely balanced gun. I put the 357 snap caps in and practiced a bit. BTW, the manual saying this gun can be dry fired with no problem.So then I put the 9mm cylinder in. Not the quickest thing, but not so bad. I put the 9mm snap caps in and....well...the cylinder would not rotate. I need to investigate further, but it's like the problem is the snap cap itself......they stick up and the primer end on SOME interfere...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamuMahubah Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dude! I seriously cannot look at anymore Blackhawks or grips today! I so so bad want a Blackhawk now! I need a .41 Magnum version though for sentimental reasons...Which grips did you get from Esmeralda?Oh yah about the snap caps...compare one to an actual 9mm shell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-MAN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dude! I seriously cannot look at anymore Blackhawks or grips today! I so so bad want a Blackhawk now! I want an Uberti Colt 1851 Navy Richards-Mason conversion in 38 Special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamuMahubah Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Yah! ^Now that baby would be drop dead sexy with stag horn grips... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Which grips did you get from Esmeralda?Oh yah about the snap caps...compare one to an actual 9mm shell... http://www.esmeralda.cc/rugergrips.htm SN#9437OK here's the deal. The 9mm cylinder is counterbored so the 9mm case rests on the counterbore. Yes the snap caps vary, and guess what - the conterbore depth varies. Not good. I guess I will call Ruger tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamuMahubah Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Wow the grips do look nice! I likey! I got to get a Blackhawk soon... I like those...plain and fancy at the same time...gorgeous! Oh yah about the counterbore...can you take the cylinder out of the gun and see if 9mm cartridges fit? I think the issue might be with the snap caps.Do the snap caps go through the Sig real nice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-MAN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Remember, the 9mm has to headspace on the case mouth, not the rim (since it doesn' have a rim) like the 357. It could be the snap caps just won't seat properly in the Ruger cylinder. As Camu suggested, remove the cylinder and fill it up with actual 9mm rounds and see if they don't seat correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Oh yah about the counterbore...can you take the cylinder out of the gun and see if 9mm cartridges fit? I think the issue might be with the snap caps.Do the snap caps go through the Sig real nice? I have the cylinder out and I have three types of ammo and the snap caps. The 3 live rounds are different brands. I tried a mess of combinations. I wish I had an adequate depth gauge.Let me try and be brief - select the longest case live round or the longest snap cap. Let's test all six positions. In one position the round fits all the way in, next up a little, next up quite a bit, next all the way in, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamuMahubah Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hmmm...I was thinking that gun would require moonclips to use a non-rimmed case...Please tell me the .38/.357 cylinder works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-MAN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hmmm...I was thinking that gun would require moonclips to use a non-rimmed case...Please tell me the .38/.357 cylinder works! I think the 9mm cyl has some sort of built in clips to hold the case but the cartridge still headspaces on the case mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: CamuMahubahHmmm...I was thinking that gun would require moonclips to use a non-rimmed case...Please tell me the .38/.357 cylinder works! I think the 9mm cyl has some sort of built in clips to hold the case but the cartridge still headspaces on the case mouth. Nope. No half-moon clips. As I stated the case mouth simply rests on the counterbore. Worst case scenario I can only use some 9mm ammo in this gun.The 357 cylinder works like a champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 The good news is the low cost Magtech ammo fits very well. It has the shortest case.It may be very well that the Snap Caps are generally machined to maximum material condition. And some commercial 9mm rounds have cases on the larger side of the specification - yeah same thing max material.The 9mm snap caps cycle very well in the Sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryinIN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 This does sound odd, because most 9mm cases run short when I've measured. Plenty short. That would almost be a plus in this situation.Then again...I've never had a convertible Blackhawk (only regular revolver calibers) so am not sure how the cylinder is made on the 9mm or 45ACPs, but:Due to the case design, there might supposed to be some case showing above the cylinder. Might.It would almost be necessary if the cylinder is the same length externally as the .357 cylinder. On the .357 cylinder, there has to be space between the cylinder and frame for the .357's rim. That space is filled by the rim and a couple thousandths' clearance. If they use that same length cylinder for 9mm, and the case fit flush like we would expect it to, there would be a gap between the frame and case big enough the firing pin wouldn't reach the primer (or at least reliably). I doubt they use a longer cylinder with the 9mm because some get their 9mm cylinder rechambered to wildcat cartridges like the 357/44 B&D (44 Mag necked to 357) and it's a simple rechambering job. If the cylinder was longer, it would need faced off at the rear with the ratchet left in place, which could get complicated and I'm sure would have been mentioned.Are the cases sticking out farther than the extractor groove? I would think they could stick out that far and be OK. The internal powder chamber starts above there on rimless cases like that. The extractor groove portion sticks out on moonclip guns like S&W 625s for the moonlip to go on. Sticking out any farther beyond that though, and I wouldn't be so comfortable. My first move would be to call Ruger and describe it.You could even email pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 First the good news this AM.I decided to put the 9mm cylinder back in the gun, and put live ammo in - guess what? Winchester, American Eagle and MagTech allow the cylinder to spin freely. Just those blasted Snap Caps vary and stick up enough to cause hassles.I guess there is no bad news! Quote:Are the cases sticking out farther than the extractor groove?Not on the live ammo. Sure, some stick out more, but I can't see the groove. On the Snap Caps, for sure and it varies from Snap cap to Snap cap. Kinda irritating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Quote:I doubt they use a longer cylinder with the 9mm because some get their 9mm cylinder rechambered to wildcat cartridges like the 357/44 B&D (44 Mag necked to 357) and it's a simple rechambering job.Would you please stop putting these illicit ideas in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamuMahubah Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Would you please stop putting these illicit ideas in my head. Yah this Barry guy is a well of ballistic knowledge! Do it Pabs! Something to think about later down the road if you really wanna a conversation starter at the range![setting] A shooting range in the pristine jungles of the Pacific Northwest...Random Dude: Hey where'd you get those fancy grips and what caliber is that Blackhawk?Pabs: Well lemme tell ya... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 That would be an awesome pistol round. I'd need a scope!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryinIN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Just trying to help....You know, get it out of your system....From Reloadammo.com:357/44 Bain & DavisHistorical Notes:Intended for use in special, rebuilt 44 Magnum revolvers, the 357/44 Bain & Davis had a rather short life and fell into disuse. However, in more recent times it has resurfaced as a chambering for Thompson Center Contender single shot pistols, and in this application, it really comes into its own. The cartridge was developed by gunsmith Keith Davis and first announced in an article by Dan Cotterman appearing in the January 1964 issue of Gun World magazine. The original purpose for the design was to bring the velocity of the 38 caliber revolver up to 1410 fps with the 158 grain bullet. Actual velocity is, of course, some 200 to 300 fps below that figure. Ammunition catalogs no longer list the 158 grain 357 Magnum at anything like 1410 fps. In any event, the 357/44 B&D did achieve its goal by developing velocities in the revolver of over 1400 fps. The case is based on the 44 Magnum necked down without any other change.General Comments:The 357/44 B&D is another wildcat that started off as one thing (a high velocity 38 revolver cartridge) and ended up as something else (a silhouette and hunting round for single shot pistols). What is interesting about this cartridge is that although smaller than the 357 Herrett, it produces equal or slightly superior ballistics. It is a potent and effective cartridge for either metallic silhouette or small game hunting with bullets of 110 to 158 grains. As a field cartridge, it will cover the spectrum from small game and varmints up to deer, although it's a bit marginal for the latter. Cases are easy to make, requiring only a full length sizing and seating die.And from Cartridges of the World:357/44 Bain & Davis Reloading DataBullet (grs.) Powder / (grs.) MV ME Source110 JHP W296 / 24.0 2120 1100 N/A110 JHP W296 / 28.0 2365 1370 N/A125 JHP IMR4227 / 26.0 2085 1205 N/A125 JHP W296 / 25.0 2170 1310 N/A158 JSP W296 / 24.0 2045 1465 N/A158 JSP 2400 / 18.0 1700 1020 N/AAll data for a 10" TC Contender only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I could have my 357 levergun barrel bored to accept that as well!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryinIN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 The 357/44 Bain & Davis and the 357 AutoMag cartridges always sounded like two peas in a pod to me. The B&D was based on the .44 Magnum case, and the 357 AM was based on the .44 AM case, which are extremely close ballistically. The big problem with bottleneck cases in revolvers is that when fired, the shoulder will push the case back. After some of those (A few? A couple? Just one?) they will be pressed up against the frame so tight the cylinder will be hard to turn. That's what I always read anyway.But...The one and only guy I know of who messed with the 357/44 B&D (on a S&W 28) said he had no trouble but he would only shoot a couple of cylinderfulls before giving it a good cleaning. He also kept the chambers absolutely oil free with alcohol or something. For a hunting or playing around gun, that would probably be OK. I doubt you would shoot a couple hundred at a time.I once read of a version called the 357/44 Bobcat. The cylinder was bored through, so it resembled a 44 Mag cylinder, and used with the .357 barrel. The case was bottlenecked, but I don;t remember if it was the same as the B&D or not.The item that made it work was a collar made of some sort of plastic.This collar went over the case neck and seated against the shoulder. I don't recall if it was glued in place or press-fit. They were only good for a loading or two before cracking or splitting, but they eliminated the case setback thing. This was 30 years ago and I never read a bit more about it, so it must not have been a big hit. Or maybe there was so little interest nobody much cared whether it worked or not.For some reason, I've always had a desire for a carbine in a similar chambering. A lever action in 357/44 B&D might be neat (for some reason), and I think they've been done, but what I'd really like would be an AR15 in 357 AutoMag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryinIN Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I could have my 357 levergun barrel bored to accept that as well!!! Great minds think alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Here's the Bobcat:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264402 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryinIN Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Yes! That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLH70 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I just did a rudimentary check on the headspace on my 9mm cylinder. I used one 9mm cartridge and placed it in each cylinder, much like Pablo did, and it looks to me like each cylinder is counterbored to the same depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I just did a rudimentary check on the headspace on my 9mm cylinder. I used one 9mm cartridge and placed it in each cylinder, much like Pablo did, and it looks to me like each cylinder is counterbored to the same depth. I think mine are too. The snap caps were throwing me off. Ammo does vary between brands, but the counterbores appear equal - if they vary, it's not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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