Pig Nose vs. Floppy Nose

[Pablo]

http://www.google.com/m?hl=en&gl=us&...q=glock+pignose

Here's what happens (been there, done that). On my Glocks and FN's if you hang a decent laser or light on there and shoot the gun until it's quite warm, the front portion of the frame will sag away from the slide/barrel. Ask me how I know this. The first time, with a green laser that was absolutely scary dead nuts on when I started shooting but as I shot more and faster the holes were deviating up in a PERFECTLY straight vertical line. Amazing really. At first, I was "what is going on with my grip", over? Then I saw how far the polymer had sagged. I true weakness of plastic. The good news is my Glock 17L is much less susceptible.

POINT: It's better to have your nose a little erect vs. floppy and limp when hot.

I think Glock pre-stresses the plastic a bit to compensate for limp nose.

[jjjxlr8]

That's why you need this... Rudolph nose

[Pablo]

Problem solved!

[dnewton3]

The Glock is a battle weapon, first and foremost.

Laser alignment items hanging down from the frame attachment point is not what Glock had in mind. It was added to accomodate lighting systems (flashlights). People are certainly free to add what they want, but a small light is what's practical (Of note, it's what we carry, our choice if we want to, at our SO, however we cannot add lasers of any kind).

Here's why I bring this up ...

You're MUCH more likely to put many more rounds through the weapon in one event (sport shooting on any given day/hour) than a cop or military person is. When we all sport-shoot, we can often send many mags down the barrel in a single session; that does not happen in a real shoot-out. VERY FEW law or military shootouts even empty the first magazine. Heat into the frame isn't a big deal.

Plus, I'd point out that the advantage to the Glock system overall is that the frame will flex a bit; absorbs shock from firing, dropping, etc. However, if you use the slide sights (the tools for aiming the weapon by design intent), no amount of frame flex will affect your point of aim!

I'm not aware of a single LE dept in my area that allows for lasers on the sidearms, but they do allow lights. If the light drops it's point of aim an inch or two in a night shoot, that's probably the last thing I'm going to worry about ...

Further, there is merit tot he debate about the use of lasers in general; I find it to be a matter of personal preference. I personally find sight enhancement tools (toys) to be over-rated many times. I can shoot every bit as well with a handgun or longgun using open sights as anyone with one of those lasers or red-dot tools, given a "reasonable" distance target. (Yes, long shooting past such as 200 yards or more is certainly the baliwick of using a proper scope, but that's a different topic). People like the gizzmos they put on to accessorize the weapons; fine by me. But I've tried many of them and find I can shoot just as well without them. Open sights are reliable sights that don't need batteries, don't add weight, and won't fail at the worst possible time. (Self-imluminated sights like Trijicon or Meprolight as excluded as they are enhancements to existing sights that add no perceieable weight or complexity).

Here's why I bring this up; using a single point aiming aid like a laser or red-dot encourages you to focus on the little red dot (be it on the person or one the tool). It takes away your "open" mind of viewing the target and the target's actions. While this may not be of concern at the range (a piece of paper or steel does not shoot back or offer other threats), a real person who is a target presents many attributes that must be considered. When in my mindset as a SO deputy, I need to focus my signts on the target, but my "eye" is taking in the whole scene. I need to see the whole picture. It's very easy for me to see a whole body (or most of a body anyway), but I'd have a terrible time, in a stress shoot, tying to get my eye to pick up the little red dot. AND, what happens if the little red dot lands on a red surface? It disappears into the background! Red dot on red jacket means no attainable point of aim, etc. In a stress shoot, you'd have to transition back to the sights after spending a second or two realizing you cannot see the laser. Or what if it simply malfunctions and does not come on, or (worst of all) sends you point of aim off target? Those one or two seconds may mean life or death.

I understand that (especially red-dot sights) are very popular with the military, and now are being heavily utilized in the civilian and LE markets. But I think it's a crutch tool that promotes a dependency I'd rather not have an attachment too.

I'm not trying to take away the fun of accessorizing the weapons we use; just trying to explain the rationale. Glock does not care if you mount a laser on your gun, but they also don't care if it drifts off POA. That's what your slide-mounted sights are for. They didn't design the weapon to be aimed with a laser, so if it drifts off due to frame flex, they don't care.

Not saying anyone is wrong for using the extra goodies; it's a personal preference. More than anything else, as long as you're aware of the issue, you can self-correct for the POA error as you rack up the round count during your shooting session.

[Pablo]

What you say makes total sense. And exactly what I was thinking. No one will get their Glock this hot in a defensive situation. Glocks are OK and I like my two choices, but let's face it plastic does have it's strengths and weaknesses. I doubt I'll buy another Glock, but you never know.

I just never see people talking about droopy plastic. I do see quite a few people with lasers at the indoor range - and I doubt they think about this kinda thing and frankly it caught me by surprise. I own a total of one laser, the green one, right now it's on my Colt Rail Gun. My Streamlight is on my FNP-45 which, yes, who cares if it gets a little floppy.

[BarryinIN]

Some observations, comments, and personal opinions on lights, lasers, etc...

First, yes, people sometimes get excited over what a gun will do when it heats up. I really like the HK P7 pistol, which has a sort of gas cylinder above the trigger. It has been a source of amusement for me when people pronounce the P7 bad for defensive carry because this area heats up after a lot of rounds and can be uncomfortable for the trigger finger. Not only does it take more shots to warm it than I've ever heard of being used in a gunfight, I doubt most P7 owners have enough magazines (at $55+ each) to get there without stopping to refill them.

These same people stress out over having the latest heat shield forend for a rifle that gets 20 rounds through it three times a year.

The heating problem does come up in classes though. A typical class of say 800 rounds in three days or 1500 in five days has periods that get the guns pretty hot. I see a lot of guns drop dead in classes that had always been fine before, and my personal theory is the heat brings out the flaws that would otherwise go unnoticed.

And there is practice. Most of us don't shoot the guns hard enough to get them really hot, but it can happen. A department qual or the 50-rd IDPA classifier won't do it, but practicing for them by running through the course of fire three or four times can do it.

Even weather can make a difference. I've shot at the club when visiting the in-laws in GA in summer and while I take preparations for the heat, I might have to keep it really short for the gun's sake. They can't cool down, so it builds up quicker.

Lights, lasers, and red dots are situational things. Obviously one won't need a light if they are always in daylight. I think if you gave most people a flashlight and made them carry it all day, they might be surprised how much they used it, though.

I do think that a lot of people depend on the weapon light too much. A lot, if not most, of the time, a handheld light would serve better. I like a light on HD guns, but keep handhelds handy too. If I could only have one, I'd take a handheld over just a weapon light. Often, you need to move the light around to get the best angle, as anyone who has used a flashlight for much of anything knows. The first shots in the night shoot portion of classes always go the same way: The command to shoot is given, a beam of light hits every target, there is an ever so slight pause, and a flurry of light as everyone adjusts their light to send it in at a different angle because straight-on didn't work as well as hoped.

Red dots I like. I've been a fan for a while. If one can see extremely well, they may not see the need, but I think they help most people by giving them one thing to focus on. Then again, I remember last summer when helping my kids shoot for the first time and hearing "But you said I wouldn't be able to focus on both sights and the target at once". Rotten youth. But red dots do take some time to get the most from. I got my first one in 1985 (Aimpoint MkIII) and still have to remind myself to use both eyes an focus on the target instead of using it like a scope reticle. I'm faster with a red dot than any iron sight. I made Master in Highpower and was shooting well into High Master when I had to quit, and although I did it with Iron sights I would have taken a red dot in a second.

Another plus is usually only found when in awkward positions. There are some unusual prone positions, for example, that puts the shooter's eye in a position where it can't get behind the sights (or scope) to use them, but I can catch enough on the Aimpoint's tube to get the dot although it's way off center.

Battery life or durability are not the problems they once were. Current Aimpoints can be left on for something like three years. Change the batts annually and you are good. I've seen Aimpoints take abuse that would crush the aperture of a peep sight if not tear it off. I was still seeing HoloSights crash in my last class, but they are getting better.

I'm not ready for a mini red dot on a pistol yet. Getting them that small takes away some ruggedness and battery life. I don't think better ones are that far away, though.

Lasers I'm not that keen on. I really only see them as a specialty tool for a couple of situations. Most of the claimed advantages seem like disadvantages to me, but at least one negative sounds iffy to me too. The supposed psychological factor seems doubtful to me, where they claim seeing a red dot on the chest sets the bad guy to quaking. Do people who are about to shoot you look down at their chest to check for lights? Oh, I'm sure it has happened, but making it out like it is to be expected is wrong in my opinion. On the other hand I hear people saying the bad guy can track the beam right back to you. I would think that would only be in a smoke filled room, and are there really that many situations (at least in non-LE) where the attacker wouldn't know your presence already?

I also think they breed bad shooting habits. Wanting to look over the sights and check the target (sending shots low) is already a bad habit to break, an adding a device that practically requires it doesn't help. So is concentrating on the target instead of the front sight. We already have to fight doing these things with just iron pistol sights, so adding an either/or to the mix won't help.

And I agree, drawing ones focus to a laser dot might make tunnel vision even worse.

Where I do see lasers as beneficial are as a training tool, and maybe on a BUG. I've seen a couple of instructors use them to convince people they were not pressing the trigger correctly. The students were sure they were not pulling the sights off target, but when they tried his laser-equiped gun and saw the laser swing across the target they were finally convinced.

I have considered using a laser on a BUG. It would go my my J-frame ankle gun if I did it. If I am down to that gun, it could be because I am injured or restrained/pinned and can't get the sights to eye level.

[dnewton3]

You both make great points.

Much of it is personal preference, as I said. I abhor relying on something that might fail (and anything can fail in the "wrong" circumstances). So I try to keep my equipment, especially life-altering equipment, as simple as practical.

I've shot a few of my Glocks until they were nearly untouchable, in an attempt to get them to cook off a round (didn't happen). I never noticed any accuracy degradation (past my own tiring), but then again I wasn't looking for the frame droop. Since I use iron sights, and that didn't change enough to effect my POA vs. POI, I never even thought to check the frame. But my point is valid; frame droop might affect something below the frame, but the impact point alignment with the slide stays true, so I'm not inclined to worry about frame flex or drooping. The fact that Glocks may droop when heat soaked matters little to me; I don’t use them in a situation that would rely on frame-aiming.

Paul is spot-on right though, nothing is perfect and everything has benefits and limitations. His experience is valid as well. It's not relevant to me, but it surely gave him different results. Also, I doubt the shift of POI was enough to really warrant concern in a "shoot out" for two reasons:

1) it probably would never get that hot (not enough rounds downrange)

2) the vertical stringing still would most likely put the bullets on/near center mass, just an inch or two off his aim, and that would still be excellent placement overall

As I write this, it occurs to me that a novice/noob with a handgun might actually benefit from a laser? If the laser were of high quality and reliable, it might assist in putting the shots where they belong. Think of the novice homeowner, or perhaps a young lady or older man that has limited experience with the gun. In a time of stress, he/she is only looking at the target and not the sights. In that case, I can see the laser perhaps being a good tool.

As for the red-dots (Aimpoints and other brands), I've heard great things about them from these new generations and latest iterations. My experiences may not be valid any longer. Perhaps I need to crawl out and try a new one? For me, it's just an issue of focal point versus field of view. Maybe it's just my own personal limitation, but I cannot seem to concentrate on the dot, and my subject, at the same time. If I leave both eyes open, I cannot seem to acquire the dot. If I close one eye, I lose perspective in the framing of the instrument. Also, the red-dot type instruments seem to be VERY subjective to your cheek weld; this is what bothers me more than anything else. Just the slightest variance shifts the point of impact. I realize that the current trend is to shove your nose into the charging handle of an AR type long gun and "bone" your cheek to the stock, but it's not comfortable for me, and I'm not consistent with that technique. I am, however, really good at quick assessment and looking over iron sights. Kind of aligns with my comments about the laser and vertical stringing. At short yardages, I'm not worried if I'm off by one or two inches vertically. We train to be lethal (or, to be politically correct, to "incapacitate" the target), not to be "perfect" and punch the "x" out of the target. Only when we get out to 100 yards or more do I actually get down on the sights and use them. Heck, at our department, I don’t even get a long gun issued to me; they are checked out of the storage locker upon the start of my shift. I might have a mini-14 or I might have a decommissioned M-16 (converted to semi only). The upside is that I can shoot both well; the downside is that we cannot personalize the weapons to us individually. Hence, we learn to shoot what we’re handed, and we don’t get to put “toys” on top of them.

At the SO, we shoot 9mm and .223; that’s all. But at home I shoot a large variety of stuff. And I probably “train” with .22lr more than anything else. Sight picture is sight picture. Muscle memory is muscle memory. I train more at home than I ever do at the SO. At home, I don’t even shoot paper; we shoot steel plates. Nothing gives immediate feedback like the hit/miss of steel. I don’t care that I’m not aiming for a 1” circle; I’m ringing a 5”x5” plate, and that is excellent tactical training for real world. I shoot standing, prone, upside down, behind barricades, stationary, moving, etc. So when I do have to officially “qualify” at the SO, I’m so used to putting the round in the same 25 square inches that I’m WELL within the rings of “Expert” ratings. (Note: just yesterday at the SO I shot 240/240 with my service Glock 19 and 180/180 for my BUG Glock 26 for annual qual’s). If I can do that without extra tools hanging off the weapon, then why complicate things?

Not that I'm trying to take away the excellent points you both have made; they are valid and well thought-out. I just wonder if we don't have slightly different needs based upon our situations. We might really be in agreement, but perhaps for different reasons?

[jjjxlr8]

I use my laser mainly for dry fire practice! It's very helpful for me to see if I'm moving the dot when I squeeze the trigger.

I tried using the laser once during some self defense type training / shooting. The drills basically involved pulling the firearm up and shooting immediately, both while stationary and moving. I barely even saw the sights or the dot from the laser! It was simply point and shoot muscle memory. My total focus was on the target and there was really no time to aim in the traditional sense. This was a bit of an eye opener for me.

[Pablo]

I use my laser mainly for dry fire practice! It's very helpful for me to see if I'm moving the dot when I squeeze the trigger.

I tried using the laser once during some self defense type training / shooting. The drills basically involved pulling the firearm up and shooting immediately, both while stationary and moving. I barely even saw the sights or the dot from the laser! It was simply point and shoot muscle memory. My total focus was on the target and there was really no time to aim in the traditional sense. This was a bit of an eye opener for me.

Good post. With a DA trigger a laser is great for training. I do the same thing!

[dnewton3]

Excellent point, guys. Another good use for the laser.

As for the CQB shooting, lasers and sights are (nearly) worthless. Good muscle memory will aid speed, as stated. That is why we train to shoot over the sights for short distances (out to 7 yards).