Thoughts and opinions wanted.

[ausfahrt]

I recently stumbled upon a website that would allow me to combine my ongoing interest in WWII history with my growing interest in firearms:

http://www.mauser.org/

I am interested in the $399.00 souvenir rifle but I have a few questions and the website is not all that informative.

1. What is the caliber of these vintage rifles and is ammo still available?

2. It says that they are cleaned and inspected...are they safe to shoot?

3. I would eventually want to mount a period correct scope, are they available?

Thanks.

[BarryinIN]

I'm not a Mauser collector but I don't hear or read many good things about Mitchell's Mausers when I'm browsing around that area of firearms. I think the general feeling is he is packaging fairly common guns and selling them for about double the going rate.

But as I say, that isn't something I paid that much attention to.

If I were you, I'd look at places like www.milsurps.com forum and search Mitchell's Mausers.

To briefly answer some of your questions...

Military Mausers have been made in dozens of calibers but the Germans used 7.9x57mm, which is usually called 8x57mm or 8mm Mauser here.

Ammo is available from the major makers, plus a little surplus has been showing up from places like Turkey. Quality of surplus varies widely.

Original scopes can be had but can be very expensive. They never were that common, then got separated from the rifles when "liberated". The most used one was probably the zf41 (about 1.5x).

A search on one of the online gun auction sites showed one zf41selling recently... For $3500.

[ausfahrt]

I was ready to pull the trigger (pun intended ) on this purchase right away. Since I have now settled down a bit, I'm glad that I took the time to give it some more thought.

That's great info and obviously a $3500 scope on a $400 rifle is out of the question. Thanks for the feedback.

-Steve

[billt]

These are 2 Mitchell's Mauser rifles I picked up a few years back. There is nothing wrong with Mitchel's Mausers. People say they overcharge. They don't, and here is why. I scoured gun shows here in the Phoenix area for over 2 years looking for a couple of nice Mauser's. I found none anywhere near as nice as what Mitchell's provides.

Most of them were overpriced, beat up, old war relics. Mitchell's provides you with a near perfect rifle. They shoot every bit as accurately as they look. I get compliments on them every time I take them to the range. Everyone wants to know where I got them. The rifles come packaged with all of the accessories including a beautiful bayonet and scabbard, all in immaculate condition.

Mitchell's has a top AA rating with the BBB. That isn't because of unsatisfied customers. They also have a money back guarantee on every rifle you buy from them. They delivered my rifles in just 2 days from the time I placed the order. You can look as I did, but you won't find better Mauser's for the price. I know because I looked for almost 2 years, and all I got for my efforts was frustrated. Bill T.

[BarryinIN]

I never said they weren't good looking rifles.

But Mitchell's is...misleading...at the very least. They advertise "Own the original German WWII K98 bolt action rifle collector grade $499".

Any I've seen aren't German, but Yugoslavian.

They therefore weren't K98s either, but M48s.

Which means they weren't from WWII either, since they didn't exist during the war.

Other than that, they are spot-on: they are bolt action rifles, that Mitchell's grades as collector grade within their system, and they are selling them for $499.

It's that "German WWII K98" part that's a little fuzzy.

I wonder... Would they sell more of them, or fewer, with a more accurate description?

That's just their opening statement. It doesn't get any better as you look more.

They could be the most beautiful Mausers in the world, shoot quarter moa groups, and sell for $49.99, but since they continue to mislead the uninformed into thinking they are buying a rifle that was carried in blitzkriegs across France or survived the siege of Stalingrad, they have ZERO credibility with me and I will continue to point out their chicanery whenever people ask about them.

This is not just some mis-matched numbers being hidden or something of the sort. It's way worse than that. It's advertising one thing to sell something else, while being fully aware of what they are doing. The fact some buyers might never know or even care does not matter. Deception is deception.

A lot of potential buyers don't care about collector grade things like matching numbers.

Most care about flat-out misrepresentation.

[billt]

A lot of potential buyers don't care about collector grade things like matching numbers.

Most care about flat-out misrepresentation.

If most who bought Mitchell's guns felt there were misrepresented, there would be far more complaints. Most who say they misrepresent aren't buyers of their guns, just criticizers. For what it's worth all numbers on my guns match. Bolt, Receiver, stock, and floor plate. Bill T.

[BarryinIN]

They are definitely misrepresented, whether buyers are complaining or not.

Do they realize they were misrepresented? Since the knowledgeable Mauser guys don't seem to want to touch the Mitchell's (otherwise they would have sold out years ago) does the average buyer know they were misrepresented?

Would they accept it if they were told or shown? People don't like to accept learning they got taken, as exemplified by the people I've seen swearing their Universal M1 carbine was a WWII bring-back in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

Maybe they don't care. Some want a good looking rifle and will buy it for that reason even if they know they "history" accompanying it can't be true.

Regardless of whether they know, care, or are complaining or not, they are definitely not as Mitchell's claims, and in multiple ways.

You don't see anyone complaining about the Mitchell's they got? Only criticizers who never bought one?

I've seen a few buyers knocking them in milsurp forums (some that you have posted in) but they seem to chalk it up as a learning experience and go on.

As far as those criticizing them who haven't actually bought one, I think the reason is obvious. Those that could already tell something was up (like seeing the polished bolts on "original finish" rifles when the Germans never did that) of course aren't going to be buyers.

Your numbers match? OK, I'm sure they do, but are they the original numbers, or numbers added later by the Russians or someone else? You know the story there, I'm sure. Anyone who does not, and is considering one of these, would be advised to do a search on Russian Capture Mausers.

How many matching sets of numbers are there on yours? Mitchell's is big on talking about all six numbers matching...but that only accounts for about a quarter of the numbered parts.

[billt]

People who buy from Mitchell's want a nice clean Mauser. They deliver that, period. You can't find cleaner, nicer ones. I tried for years. I, like most Mitchel buyers are not all wrapped up in "historical significance". We want rifles that don't look like they were used as tomato stakes. And judging by the number of rifles they sell, there are a lot of us.

The bottom line is this. Mitchell's sells a lot of rifles to a lot of satisfied people who want what they want. This is regardless of how many people who supposedly "know Mausers" say different. They have been very unsuccessful at telling satisfied people they shouldn't be. It's fun to listen to them regardless. Bill T.

[BarryinIN]

And that's where we started. I agreed then and now they sell some good looking rifles.

If that was how they advertised and described them (as nice looking but not necessarily as German or original rifles), I would have nothing bad to say.

But they don't. They act like they found them in a secret bunker in Oberndorf. So I'll steer people elsewhere when asked about their Mausers, and it's all because of their deceiving advertising. Anyone selling post-war Yugoslavian-made M48 rifles as "original German 98k rifles" will get no help from me.

How is that scheme justified by not everyone wanting an all-original collector-grade rifle?

If you want to help them continue to deceive people, that's your business.

[billt]

If you want to help them continue to deceive people, that's your business.

And just how have I helped to deceive anyone? You guys just don't get it. Mitchell's buyers are not "deceived" simply because we don't care about the very thing you continually squawk about. I knew I was buying 2 Yugo M-48 rifles. It wouldn't have mattered if they said they were chocolate covered Swedish Widgets. Give people some credit for God's sake. You people act like if we don't have a "Mauser collector" within arms length before we buy, we're going to get screwed somehow.

People buy what they like and want. Mitchell's gives that to a great number of people who want nice, clean, good shooting Mauser rifles. It's as simple as that. Stop trying to make it into this great big underlying thing it isn't. How "deceiving" is it, when most every time I go to the range and uncase my Mitchell's rifles, someone inevitably asks me where I got them? I tell them Mitchell's, not Home Depot. How "deceiving" is that? Bill T.

[BarryinIN]

How deceiving is it?

What does it say on the side of the box? It doesn't say "Nice Clean Good Looking Yugoslav M48", It says "Collector Grade Mauser Rifle".

What does their website say across the top? It doesn't say "Cleaned up, sanded, numbers match because the Russians re-numbered them, Yugoslavian M48s for sale" What it does say is "original WWII German 98k rifles for $499".

Here's one more from the website:

"Every rifle in our collection is original, and tells a unique story from WWII". Don Mitchell.

What story from WWII do those post-war M48 Yugoslavs tell exactly?

If that's not deception, then what is it?

I suppose you're right. Deception isn't strong enough.

You may know they aren't what they are advertised to be. I may know. Half the buyers may know. Every single person could know, and it would still be wrong to advertise them that way.

It's still deception whether anyone knows better or not.

I don't know why you think it's harmless. What happened here? The OP asked about them, and when he got wind that they might not be as claimed, he bolted. What if he hadn't had a chance to ask? He might have found out after he sunk $500 into one.

[billt]

What does it say on the side of the box? It doesn't say "Nice Clean Good Looking Yugoslav M48", It says "Collector Grade Mauser Rifle".

It is a Mauser Rifle. I bought it to "collect it", and shoot it. Your being completely ridiculous. Is a fully restored classic car sold at Barrett Jackson deceptive? Why not? Nothing is original. It's all been "sanded and cleaned up". It represents nothing original that rolled out of the factory other than what it is, not was.

The guns are exactly what they are, and just like Barrett Jackson, people buy them because that is exactly what they want and like. Guys like you need to get over that fact. It's a big deal to you. It isn't to me and other Mitchell's Mauser owners. We own, and are satisfied with them far more than we would be with some beat up, shot out, old, "original" war relic. You need to stop picking fly $h!t out of pepper and learn to live with that fact. Bill T.

[BarryinIN]

OK. You don't want a collector's gem. You want a good looking shooter. You've made the point many times.

How does that change the fact Mitchell's is calling post-war Yugoslavian Mauser M48s "WWII German 98k" Mausers? That's not what they are.

They didn't slip and do it once either. Their entire sales campaign is built around it, so they can sell rifles that "tell a unique story from WWII".

Deceptive at the very least. It doesn't matter if their deceptive rifles look good, they are still not what they are represented to be.

And that's my point. Maybe they are the best looking, best shooting Mausers in the world, but if they are selling them as "original WWII German 98k" rifles, they are either mistaken or lying. And with the way they present them, it's no mistake.

Whether they lied a little bit and only said they were "from Germany" because the Mauser brothers were from Germany, or lied a lot by claiming they were from Hitler's personal bodyguard staff (each with an "A.H." stamping) it's still a lie.

The fact you don't care doesn't change anything. If they are selling one thing as something else, whether guns, cars, or real estate, it doesn't matter if it looks good it's still deceptive and misleading.

If you want to use the car analogy, let's do that.

I'll stay with a German product and say someone advertised "collector grade original" Porsche 917s, each with "a unique story from 1970-71 LeMans races" and "matching numbers".

Now let's say those 917s turned out to be fiberglass Lancer 917 kit cars built on VW Beatles in the early 80s, whose only connection to LeMans is the builder saw the movie once, and the matching numbers were put on last month.

That would be just as honest as what Mitchell's is doing. Maybe they are nice cars...but they sure aren't what was advertised.

Is there anything wrong with that? Continuing the comparison, you might buy one and think everything is fine because, to paraphrase, you got a clean, good looking car.

[billt]

OK. You don't want a collector's gem. You want a good looking shooter. You've made the point many times.