2013 SHOT Show Reports

[BarryinIN]

I have a couple of agents on the scene. They tell me what is new there and I look it up. I might as well share it here.

S&W M&P10: A .308 AR.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/s...1_757785_757784

Winchester The Model 73 lever action returns after 94 years.

http://www.romeotangobravo.net/2013/01/winchester-73-shotshow.html?m=1

No added safety (tang, crossbolt). Short Rifle configuration in .357 Mag the first year. MSRP $1299, which for Winchester, and a 73, is less than I would have guessed.

Not that I don't welcome it, but I'm curious about that lack of added safety. My hunch has always been that the safeties were added to meet import laws since the "historical" series was made by Miroku in Japan. So I wonder if maybe these are made in the US.

Remington's new bolt action they were yapping about is the Model 783.

As expected, it looks like a competitor to the Ruger American Rifle.

http://www.remington.com/en/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-783.aspx

They also have a "carry" model of their 1911:

http://www.1911r1.com/en/Products/Firearms/Model-1911-Carry.aspx

When I posted the new Rugers, I missed the LC380 pistol. Oh well.

Springfield has a single stack 9mm in the XDs now.

Kimber Micro CDP .380. It looks like the Colt Mustang/Sig P238.

IWI and Kassnar have been working on this for over a year, but they are still trying to bring the Tavor 21 bullpup .223 in from Israel.

Colt has a bolt action rifle (again). Kinda neat. The M2012 Competition Long Range rifle.

And some more 1911 variations.

Rock Island Armory is making 1911s in the glorious 10mm.

Saiga 9mm carbine.

Sig P227 .45

Alliance Armament Orion 12 (I think its what a 12 ga AK would look like if it had been designed in the US instead of Russia)

Chiappa THREE barreled shotgun. I want this, for some reason.

Browning has an A-Bolt III. What makes it a III I don't know yet.

[Pablo]

Me want.

Well NOT the XD-s 9mm. I LOVE my XD-s 45, it's a GREAT gun. I fail to see the point of the 9mm. There are a lot smaller 9mm's. The .45ACP model is perfect, a nice pocket .45 with 6 rounds. The 9mm joins a crowded 9mm sub-compact market and is huger and heavier than the competition. They'll probably sell millions.

[BarryinIN]

So the Tavor has started shipping. There have been review guns floating around for about a month, and there are pics of pallets of them waiting to go out the door.

One hit Gunbroker a few days ago. Starting bid of $2000. Buy It Now price of $4000. I thought it might bring close to $4k.

Well, it was standing at $2850 yesterday. I think maybe four days were left. It's gone today. Someone paid the $4k to say "I'm (almost) first".

Wow.

[dnewton3]

I can't justify that price for a rifle, of that design.

I like bullpups, for not for 4-large!

[BarryinIN]

If you really want one, Ratworx (in IL) just got a bunch in. I hear they are selling them for $2,000, plus $25 shipping but you need to call ASAP. All are black, some are in LH config.

800-675-6906

815-734-7346

[Pablo]

Well after reading the review, that might be the only bullpup I would love to own. $2000? If it were OD green I would be all over it..............well after I saved separately, some income stream that is new.

[BarryinIN]

If it were OD green I would be all over it.............

It can be had in FDE, which should cover OK with a can of Krylon.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

If it were OD green I would be all over it.............

It can be had in FDE, which should cover OK with a can of Krylon.

That's hilarious!! Too rich. Made my day actually!!

[BarryinIN]

Hey, a lot of people are throwing piles of money at them to be first. That only takes money. If you want to truly be first at something, buy a Tavor and a can of paint. The title of "First to rattle can a Tavor" can only be had by one!!!!!

[BarryinIN]

Comments on the Tavor from Larry Vickers that I swiped from another forum.

(I can hardly stomach his TV show because its awful hard to watch 50 year old white guys talk while making rapper-like hand gestures, but I sure do have nothing but the highest respect for Larry Vickers' deeds in the military (Army SF and Delta) and in the custom gunsmith and training worlds. Any of them buys him a free pass for a lot more than that.)

I just got my IWI US Tavor - left handed FDE Version for an upcoming TacTV episode . I played with it a lot today and I really like the fact they put limited travel QD sling swivel attachment points on it versus the original IWI design

Barring anything unforeseen I think it is the best Bullpup I have ever handled and it seems like with practice it is even switch shoulder capable without a lot of problems

It is extremely compact and has excellent controls - it is the first Bullpup I have ever handled that I would even consider using over an M4 carbine; it has a lot of potential

The best new assault rifle (sic) I have handled in a very long time

My recommendation ; get one as soon as you can afford it

P.S- Tell Pablo that it won't work any better in OD.

Well, maybe not on that last part, but it is Apr 1.

[Pablo]

P.S- Tell Pablo that it won't work any better in OD.

Well, maybe not on that last part, but it is Apr 1.

I was gonna say the only reason I would buy one is to look cool.

[BarryinIN]

FYI: I've seen online reports of people finding Tavors for $1700 or under. I didn't expect to see them under $2k for at least a year after becoming available, and that was before the recent insanity.

[Pablo]

FYI: I've seen online reports of people finding Tavors for $1700 or under. I didn't expect to see them under $2k for at least a year after becoming available, and that was before the recent insanity.

Whoa. I mean think what people have been selling low-mid range AR-15's for lately. That price does not seem bad at all.

[BarryinIN]

That's kinda what I was thinking. I saw a couple of claims of buying them at $1700 and I thought it was just poking at people who felt good about getting one for $2000. Since then I've seen a couple more, and one that got his for $1681.

Of course, they are still the exception, but it's good to know its happened

[Pablo]

That's kinda what I was thinking. I saw a couple of claims of buying them at $1700 and I thought it was just poking at people who felt good about getting one for $2000. Since then I've seen a couple more, and one that got his for $1681.

Of course, they are still the exception, but it's good to know its happened

Shoot me a link, bro.

[BarryinIN]

I can't find any in stock now. I was about to give in last night about 1:00 am and start the order process, but looking at the sources I've heard of, nobody had any. Some, if not all, say they expect more next week if not sooner.

These are places that were selling them for 1950-2000. That sounded fair until I heard of the ones going for less. I think all of those came from people's local gun shops.

Cope's Distributing had a Pre-order deal going for $1910 shipped, but that closed 12-31. I have a feeling some of the bargains I'm hearing of are old deals like that, and not really from walking in and buying one as they make it sound.

Every (potential) source I find now shows prices of $1995-2000. For example:

http://www.onpointsupply.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=84677&substring=

BTW-

I've heard a place called Knesek had a Pre-order going and hosed people, so I'd avoid them.

I have cooled off some on the idea.

What does it do the AUG doesn't do? Or what does it have, that I need or want, the AUG doesn't have?

-Less weight would be nice, but it only appears to be about a half pound lighter. That's not a huge change, but welcome, and being lighter up front, it feels like more. Other than that....

-It's an inch or two shorter. I haven't decided if going from roughly 28.5 to 26.5 inches is irrelevant or huge.

-The trigger is lighter. The AUG's is crisper from what I gather.

-It has BUIS sights, though nothing great. There seems to be space to install better ones. It is a challenge to get any at all on an AUG.

-I think ergonomics break even. I really like the AUG charging handle placement, ease of locking open, and positive seating (without reciprocating when fired), and am still not clear on it but locking the Tavor open sounds a little clumsy. On the other hand, the AUG charging handle is close to the optic rail, and can bang the knuckles if not careful- the Tavor seems better in that respect, which is not insignificant. Then, while I like the AUG safety OK, the Tavor's pivoting lever is more AR-like. I don't think I like the Tavor mag catch location and operation, but might find I love it in use.

-I don't like the AUG lacking any good index point for the trigger finger when kept straight and out of the guard, but I don't know that the Tavor is better but it looks it. I can add a square of grit tape to either.

So I don't know of any advantages that are very big. There might be some big ones, but I won't know without trying one.

In fact...The AUG has the edge in a few places that I can see.

-The Tavor does not have a quick-change barrel. I have found this more useful than I expected. I can pop it right off for a quick bore cleaning, and it lets it fit in a couple of suitcases it wouldn't otherwise.

-The Israelis aren't known for having junk, but the AUG is proven over 36 years. A lot of people don't like the AUG's handling, but readily state there is nothing wrong with it mechanically. Nobody ever says "They don't work".

-And it may be concern over nothing, but IWI had to set up new US production. That might be OK and went without a hitch, but it might not have too, and we won't know at first.

-AUG parts are more readily available than most people think. The Tavor???

-A seldom mentioned AUG plus is it's "slickness". I never noticed it until getting one. It has a pretty smooth exterior without much poking out to snag, like knobs, levers, and bumps. Sounds like a small thing, but it isn't. I could be wrong, but the Tavor seems lumpier.

A lot of people like that the Tavor uses AR mags, but the AUG has a NATO stock that takes AR mags (CDNN has some now for $199) but you lose the external bolt stop with it. And I like the AUG magazine anyway.

So I am not sure if I'm liking the Tavor just because its new.

I like less weight, even if its not dramatically less. Having BUIS is nice. I'm not seeing it yet, but perhaps the mag catch is better(?).

Oh yeah- You can get the Tavor in FDE but not the AUG (yet). Yes, that is a factor besides looks to me. I seem to be in situations where I have to leave rifles sitting in the sun on really hot days, and black guns get nasty hot.

I don't know. With my messed up back, the slight weight reduction and even more rearward balance over the AUG might be enough reason for me.

[BarryinIN]

Oh yeah, there is another Tavor advantage: The 9mm conversions are said to be coming soon. That and the 5.45x39 conversion. That may or may not appeal to some.

I'm ordinarily not a big fan of 9mm carbines, but I can see big justification for it in this case, at least for me.

I don't usually shoot .223 in the woods at home because of the extra noise.

My club range does not allow rapid fire.

So with a 9mm conversion, I could practice with it at home, shooting as fast as I wanted, and using ammo I can reload faster/easier/cheaper than .223.

The conversion retail is $995, but the first place I checked with it listed (but not in stock) shows $733.

I'm not sure what magazine it uses, but prototypes at SHOT and other shows had a Colt AR 9mm SMG mag in them. The Colt mag is based on the Uzi mag (with enlarged follower to engage bolt hold open). I guess it makes some sense with the Tavor's origin- an Uzi mag should work fine but not lock open when empty.

I just might be able to find a few Uzi mags around here.

[BarryinIN]

I'm still thinking about the Tavor, but I put my name on a couple of lists for when more FDE 16.5" ones become available. I'd rather be able to say "No thanks" than "I wish I'd signed up before".

[BarryinIN]

I'm #133 on the 16.5" FDE list at one place. They got 100 in last time, but they have I think five models people are on lists for.