Beginner Recommendations...

[Gabe]

I just recently completed NRA Handgun I training course, and I am ready to move to the next step: buying my first handgun. During the class, I got the opportunity to use a couple different types and styles, but my handgun experience is extremely limited.

Most likely this gun will only be used for range practice, but I would like to be up for the task of home defense as well. I am going to get get a CCW permit to avoid possible future problems that might arise from transporting it. So, I might carry it out for a late night dog walk but that would be extremely rare.

I got the chance to shoot a 45 full sized Glock. I didn't like the safety feature on the trigger; it gave me a little trouble at first. The blast was not excessive but I remember thinking a reasonable follow up shot was going to be difficult. I know that combo isn't suggested for a beginner, but I was OK with it.

A couple of things I didn't like: stubby barrels, revolvers, and SAO.

Price wise, I am moderately flexible in the $500 to $1200 range. Since I am new, I would like to avoid buying a used gun since I don't know what to look for. If I am going to be buying a beginner gun with the expectation that I will be upgrading in a year or two, then I would like to stay toward the bottom of the budget. If I am going to be getting something that I won't be growing out of, then I am OK with going higher. Ideally, it will have some military references and be extremely rugged. A manual safety would be nice as well.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

[BarryinIN]

I'm going to start off by asking for clarification, and while it may sound like I'm being nitpicky, or trying to be a jerk, I am serious and have a point to it.

What do you mean by SAO?

I ask because I want to make sure what we are talking about here, and while I know SA and DAO, SAO is not a term I'm familiar with. I'm pretty sure it is either SA or DAO, but it makes a big difference which.

Like I said- I'm not trying to put you on the spot. You will find that guns, like anything that has been around a long time, have a lot of very specific terms associated with them. There are hundreds of years of gun designs, terms come and go, and different companies often use different names for the same thing. To make things worse, terms will get misused along the way so much they become the accepted norm. The result is there are a lot of specific names for different (or the same) things and it is very easy to get one slightly wrong and cause a big problem. I could go to a gun shop, ask for ammunition for a Winchester Model 70 in .300 caliber. That sounds fairly specific, but the Winchester Model 70 has been made in five different .300 calibers that I can think of off the top of my head, so saying "Winchester Model 70 in .300" gives me a 20% chance of getting what I need.

In truth, there are some who don't like the term "DAO" (Double Action Only) because it makes no sense. I guess I can see their point- "Double" and "Only" don't fit to together- but I think it's going a little overboard because we know what people mean by "DAO".

Just pointing out what you may have to deal with.

OK...Now to tackle the question.

I'm going to go back to Square One here. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence by implying "he couldn't possibly know this" when I start from the beginning. It's just easier to start there than find out what you know. I apologize ahead of time.

You don't like short barrels, or revolvers. I agree that neither are good to start with. That flies in the face of most advice that says revolvers are best for beginners, but I have never believed that, even when I was a big revolver fan. They're simply harder to shoot well. I know there are people who do amazing work with them, but that is the result of dedicated practice, not ease of use. People like to push them for beginners, saying they are simpler to use, but I haven't seen a revolver simpler to use than a Glock, S&W M&P, or several other autos.

Short barrels do have an advantage of being harder to take away from you, but I'd take ease of use over that. I think we are more likely to need that than an edge in retention.

With revolvers out of the way, that leaves autos.

I need to lead off by saying that some action types may appear "safer". That can be misleading. We need to remember than no gun is "safer" than another simply because it's trigger has to be pulled a little harder or moved a little farther. I'm sure there have been exceptions, but it seems to me that if someone is going to pull a trigger they are going to pull a trigger. Whether it was from shoving the gun in the holster and catching the shirt tail in the trigger guard, taking "just one more" dry fire practice shot after forgetting they reloaded, or what, the negligent discharge was going to happen.

On to the mechanics of it.

There are four basic semiauto action types.

1) SA (single action),

2) DA (Double Action) also called Traditional Double Action (TDA),

3) DAO (Double Action Only), and

4) the Safe Action type (like Glocks). The Safe Action is sort of a partially-cocked SA, so it's debatable to some whether it should have it's own category, but I'm splitting it off to talk about it.

SA Autos

I like SA autos myself, and that includes for beginners. Again, that goes against the grain, but I can list what I think are good reasons.

The SA needs the hammer cocked to fire the first shot. This is done by the slide when it is loaded. After the first shot, the slide movement re-cocks the hammer.

Some people lower the hammer and carry them that way, but there are a couple of things wrong with that, not the least of which is the risk of a negligent discharge every time it's done.

Ordinarily, the SA is carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on. That gives some people the creeps. In fact, it is no different than most rifles or shotguns, whose hammers are also cocked and safeties are on. The difference is their hammers are inside where we aren't looking at them. I'd argue that SA autos are safer because have a manual safety that blocks the sear from movement instead of just blocking the trigger, and some have a grip safety that needs depressed also. They require three distinct movements to fire them (grasp it properly to depress the grip safety, thumb the manual safety down, and press the trigger).

The SA advantages are a good trigger pull, a consistent trigger pull, a short trigger reset after a shot, and simplicity. Some of this might sound like things of use only to target shooters, but bear with me, they apply to self defense.

The simplicity comes back to the cocked hammer and thumb safety. When the SA is in my hand, my thumb falls naturally on the safety lever. I can feel whether the safety is on or not. This also tells me if it is cocked, because most of them have safeties that won't engage unless the hammer is cocked. When the gun's sights go on target, the safety gets snapped off. When lowered, I snap it up to "on".

I will come back to this later.

I want to get into trigger functions.

The trigger pull weight of a SA will probably be around five pounds as it comes from the factory. Most Glocks will be around 5.5 pounds, and a cocked DA auto might be five to six (although the hammer-down first shot will be heavier). The DAO will be at least double that. So in terms of pull weight, three of the four will be close.

"Trigger reset" is the trigger returning forward after the shot to the point it resets to fire another. The SA and Safe Action triggers usually only travel a short distance before they "click" and rest. The DA will travel farther, and the DAOs usually travel farther yet.

A short reset is not just a nice thing for shooting targets or to let you shoot five shots in .0001 second less time. People can, and do, fail to reset the trigger sometimes buy not letting it go forward enough. The typical reaction is not to let it out farther until it clicks, but to keep tugging on it. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see when this could be bad.

Moving on to DA

Double Action, or DA, seems to be a love or hate type of thing. They appear to be safer because they can be carried with the hammer down. The hammer is cocked on the first shot by pulling the trigger. To accomplish this, the trigger starts well forward in the trigger guard and gets pulled a fairly long distance. The pull weight is also quite heavy. Some can have a smooth pull in spite of the added weight and travel.

After the first shot, the hammer stays cocked. The trigger pull will then be lighter and shorter, though not quite as much as a SA auto.

Some hate them because this requires the user to learn two trigger pulls. I truthfully don't think this is the obstacle some make it out to be, but it is adding complications where they should be avoided if anything.

What I find a bigger problem is the trigger reach. At rest, the trigger is so far forward that most people can't get much finger on it. This is worse on some guns than others. CZ75s, older S&Ws, and Classic model Sigs (P220,P225, P226, P228, P229, plus the P239) aren't too bad. DA guns that have large grips, like the Beretta 92, only compound this reach problem. Their users might get the tip of the finger on it, and as they pull the trigger, they slide their finger onto it. This is going to pull shots laterally unless it's done perfect.

Alternatively, you can cock the hammer for a SA first shot.

DAs usually have either a manual safety or a decocker. Most DA safeties will drop the hammer (if cocked) when applied. They have a couple of different ways to keep the hammer from reaching the firing pin when this happens. The safety can then be left "on" or "off". With the safety on, the trigger is effectively "taken out of gear" and the safety must be taken off before it will shoot, in either DA or SA. With the safety left off, the gun can be fired with a DA trigger pull or by cocking the hammer- much like a DA revolver.

A decocker is much like a manual safety, except it is spring-loaded to return to "fire" position. If you decock it, then need to shoot again immediately, it will be ready.

The DA auto sounds good. You have to take a deliberate trigger pull for the first shot, which should prevent negligent discharges. After this, you have an easier to manage SA pull. You can thumb cock if needed. If you are done, you can decock and return it to normal.

In practice, some of this isn't such a plus. I already said I feel longer trigger pulls give a false sense of security. Thumb cocking is a little clumsy with most autos.

The biggest negative I see is complication. You might not think this would be a problem, but I see people get confused as to what condition their DA gun is in. They thought it was cocked and expect to have an SA pull, but didn't know they decocked out of habit, get a long DA pull instead, and yank their shot to their weak side. They might do the opposite ad expect a long heavy pull, forgetting they left it cocked and it goes bang when they didn't expect it. In every class I've attended with more than a couple of DA autos in use, I have seen someone start (at least) to holster their DA with the hammer cocked. sometimes more than once. If they lose track of their gun's condition in a class, can they keep things straight under pressure?

This is what I meant by the SA auto's simplicity. Safety on, safety off. That's it.

The DAO.

I have tried to be objective, but to be blunt, I can't find anything good to say about them. I really can't.

Their trigger pulls are long and heavy, the trigger reset is long. I suppose they are simple, in that you only get one trigger action- bad. At least one gunwriter/instructor out there praises them for having a trigger pull that will make you concentrate harder on your trigger press, but that's turning a big negative into a big crutch.

And that's what the DAO is- a crutch. Police administrators and others like them because they think they look safer, but they are no safer than any other gun.

That leaves the Safe Action.

Safe Action is a Glock term, but I am going to include somewhat sorta kinda similar actions like the S&W M&P, Springfield XD, etc. They don't work the same (some are partially cocked, and some are not) but the trigger feel and method of operation is similar. You know how the Glock 21 felt, and the others are similar.

The advantages are simplicity. To shoot it, you press the trigger. The XD has a grip safety you disengage when you grip it, some S&W M&Ps are available with a thumb safety, but generally speaking, you point and shoot. The pull distance is fairly short, as is the reset.

The disadvantage is this makes some people nervous. Obviously if one follows the seemingly simple rule of keeping the finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, there should be no problem. The truth is, sometimes other things get in the trigger guard. When I am a Safety Officer at an IDPA match, I will have to stop someone while holstering maybe every other match, because their shirt has got in or close to the trigger guard. The XD's grip safety and M&P's optional thumb safety make people feel better about this, but I hope it doesn't make them complacent.

My order of preference, which doesn't mean anything beyond being my order of preference, is:

1) SA

2) Safe Action

3) DA

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.

.

X) DAO

For the price range you gave, it's going to be hard to find a good new SA auto. The 1911s and Browning HiPowers simply cost more to make than a polymer frame Safe Action.

For the money, the polymer framed guns like the Glocks, S&W M&Ps and Springfield XDs are probably going to be your best bet. I much prefer SA autos, but would prefer a $500 S&W M&P over a $500 1911.

I like the S&Ws over the Glocks. I've had 12 Glocks, but any polymer autos of that size I'll buy will be M&Ps. I much prefer the grip shape. The M&Ps have three interchangeable backstraps so you can pick what feels best, and the worst one feels better than a Glock grip to me. You might find all Glocks feel better than all M&Ps.

I would stay away from Gen 4 Glocks. The 9mm, .40, and .357 Sig caliber Glocks have been Gen 4 for a while, and their 10mm and .45s are going Gen 4 now. I have heard too many stories of police departments having to get large orders replaced.

I've never owned an XD. Some people love them. I can't say.

I was in a class once that had some up-close shooting, and when we were up against the target the XDs had a problem. The way they were held, the users' hand was levered up away from the grip safety and the guns wouldn't shoot. We did some experimenting, and these same people had no trouble with 1911 grip safeties and the XDs did the same thing with other shooters. If you won't be carrying one, it's no matter.

I would suggest a 9mm caliber gun.

For one thing, ammo is cheaper in 9mm than the others. It's hard to tell right now with all ammo costs being crazy, but most of the time, it is the cheapest and usually easiest to find.

Another reason is gun size. The polymer frame guns in .45-size frames start getting a little big in the grip. Grip feel is very important. The 9mm/.40/.357 Sig size guns usually have a manageable grip even if they hold 17 or 18 rounds.

Although the .40s and .357 Sigs will be the same size, recoil increases with them. Recoil is a subjective thing, that doesn't always match the laws of physics. I think the .40's recoil is worse than the .45. It's not so much greater, as sharper. I don't like recoil, but will deal with it to get more power. When I shoot a .40, I keep thinking I could be shooting a .45 just as well and just as fast.

But different people have a different sense on recoil when shooting the same gun.

And most of these guns were designed as 9mms first, then redesigned to the other calibers. Most guns are at their best in their original calibers. Glock .40s have gotten a lot of reports of excessive case expansion over the years, and while some of it might be just Glock bashers, the reports are too prevalent to ignore.

Basically, I'd pick the one that felt the best in your hand.

The M&Ps feel best to me. The mid-size Glock 19 feels the best of the Glocks to me.

As I said above, grip fit is important. How you hold the gun will affect your shooting. You can more or less "steer" your shots by how you hold it. For whatever reason, the polymer framed guns seem more sensitive to this.

A common shooting error is to squeeze all your fingers a little along with your trigger finger. It's against our life habits to move that finger independently. When you do this, it pulls the shots low and left for a right-handed shooter. This seems to happen to a greater degree with polymer frames, and more yet ewith Glocks (my theory there is the grip angle).

The polymer frame guns amplify these little things, so it's important to get one that fits you well.

[Gabe]

Thanks for taking the time to help me out.

By SAO I meant single action only; I didn't want it confused with DA/SA. For some reason, it was under the impression that SA were a little less safe to carry.

I took your advice and went to a couple local gun shops today. The selection of SA 9 mm was very limited. I did have the change to look at a Sig M11 that a customer had ordered, but it was difficult to compare to a used Glock 19 that I had seen over an hour before.

Next weekend, I am going to make the trip to Cabelas. If I am able to compare them back-to-back, then it should highlight which one fits the best.

Thanks again for your help.

[dnewton3]

Barry has made some excellent delineation, and some great points.

I would like to add to them, in a manner that is more from an engineering point of view.

Would you be attracked to a furnace that had approximately 1/2 the parts of a competitor, and yet heated your home in the same, safe manner? Would you like a car that had 10,000 parts versus 18,000 parts, yet provided the same performance, luxury, capability and capacity?

I like simplicity. No - strike that. I LOVE simplicity. Which is why I love Glocks. I certainly appreciate other handguns; I own all kinds. But my go-to gun is a Glock. Why? Again - simplicity. Many handguns like Beretta 92's, Sig's P226, S&W's and such use a lot of parts to accomplish the same task as a Glock. Why have a gun that uses perhaps 60-70 parts to accurately fire a projectile when the Glock can do the same thing with 35 parts. (Note that there is some debate about the actual count, as you can subdivide spring cups, sights, etc). But you get the point, right?

The design of a Glock is stupid simple, and when explained well, its design and function makes as much sense as one can find in a weapon.

Further, I actually prefer the "passive safety" approach to the Safe Action Glocks. While I am capable of manipulating an active safety (think 1911 or such), I don't like that extra step. I agree with Barry that there is nothing inherently wrong with SA being cocked and locked; I find it a perfectly safe system. But I don't like the extra effort required to disengage the safety, especially in a time of panic (perhaps panic is a poor choice of words, but my intent is to infer a frationary second when I would have to deploy the weapon with much haste and no advance warning). Practice makes perfect, and muscle memory would help with this. But I like simple; did I mention that?

As for feel, that is subjective. I am the opposite of Barry; I don't like the feel of the XD or M&P; I actually like the feel of a Glock. But of all the things people complain about when it comes to the Glock, the grip feel is probably the top one. You either love it or hate it; there is no in-between. The Glock also has a much shorter trigger reset than does the S&W; I like that, but some don't.

So knowing all that, I recognize that you said you didn't like the trigger safety on the Glock and it gave you trouble. I guess I would ask, because I don't understand, how it gave you trouble? In essence, the trigger safey is passive and simply moves out of the way as you depress the trigger to the rear; what portion of this gave you trouble? If you didn't experience the trigger problem, would you have liked the Glock, that problem aside?

Overall, guns, like many things, are a very subjective topic. You first need to find something you are comfortable with, because you will be more inclined to practice with it, and therefore be more proficient with it. Owning a gun you don't like isn't helpful in the least. So use Barry's excellent descriptions, add in a bit of my analysis, and find the one you think is most likely to suit a balance of your wants and needs. Feel is subjective; function is not. I'm trying to draw a distinction between the two. I place more value on function over form; other folks perfer form over function. Neither is right or wrong, but understanding your preferences will help you find a gun that you are most happy with.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!

[Gabe]

The first time I shot a Glock, i had a difficult time with the trigger safety. In order to make sure it disengaged, I would have to slide my finger down the length of the trigger rather than pressing directly on it. It was very light, so I wasn't sure if I had it depressed correctly before I tried to fire it. Yesterday, I had an opportunity to shoot another Glock, and it was a real pleasure to use. The trigger safety worked perfectly; after a few minutes, I almost forgot it was there.

I also got a chance to use a SA 1911 (Rock Island Arms) and a compact H&K USP. The 1911 did not impress me nearly as much as the H&K. Other than a startling (I jumped.) hammer release, I cannot say anything bad about it. Shooting it back-to-back with the Glock just highlighted how nice both of these pistols are. It is going to be a tough call.

The DA/SA action trigger on the USP didn't bother me. In fact, i don't remember ever using the DA trigger set except when I deliberately trying it out. The manual safety on the H&K was a nice feature but probably actually less safe than the Glock's safety system. I do love the simplicity of a Glock.

Tuesday, i am going to stop my a local gun shop and check out their prices and availability on both a Glock and H&K.

[BarryinIN]

I got carried away and distracted before, but I meant to touch on your experience with the Glock's trigger safety. I guess there is nothing to worry about now, but I meant to point out that the S&W M&P does this differently. Instead of a tab within the trigger, the trigger itself is articulated. I've heard a few people say they don't like the Glock's trigger tab, then tried the M&P and were fine with that.

Using a DA pistol without ever actually using it in DA mode is fine on the range. If, however, there is any chance of using the gun for self defense (even in the home and not carrying it) it would be best if you did plenty of work with it in either mode. The likely scenario would put the gun stored or carried hammer down so the first shot will be done in DA. With the first shot being the most important shot, and perhaps the only one you may get, it should be practiced.

Handgun shooting is a perishable skill. Speaking for myself, handling the DA auto trigger is one of the more perishable sub sets.

[Gabe]

Work slowed down today, so I ducked out a little early and made it to a local gun shop before they closed.

I was quoted $560 for a Glock 19. They have a few trickling down from their distributor but definitely should be in stock 4 to 8 weeks. They did have a nice G23 on the shelf. A Sig P229 Gen 2 was ~$850 and available after 8 weeks. H&K could not be ordered.