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Practically Shooting

Which 10mm platform?


Pablo

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Wow I havent heard 10mm for a long time. Can you still buy that round in stores? I see it online but never in stores. Kudos for wanting it. Its kind of like me and my .32acp Skorpion. Fun to shoot but whoa is it expensive compared to a 9mm by over double. In the end in small doses its worth shooting.

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Nice round but for plinking?

Shoot a .40 S&W. Load up your .357mag and shoot milk jugs. Save the $$ for something else.

Your .357sig is real close to 10mm for "plinking" IMO.

I've done 10mm and while it was a nice round, easy to reload I don' t have it anymore. Rather load for other calibers.

But IF it has to be done I'd play with a 1911 10mm type of weapon.

Be safe! Bill

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I guess that, by default, my Delta Elite is a plinker too. I haven't shot anything with it that bleeds, have only used it in a couple of matches, and haven't carried it for defense (no reason aside from carrying guns I've shot more). So since it's not been a hunting, match, or daily carry gun for me thus far, I guess it's a plinker. Seems OK at it, though.:)

Here are the 10MMs I've had, in order of appearance:

S&W 1006.

Nice gun, and I always liked how they looked. The 1006 and 4506 were two of the better looking handguns IMO. It seemed to handle the 10MM fine, but it had more muzzle rise and twist than the Glock and 1911 10MMs I've owed or shot, perhaps due to the bore line being a little higher.

Reasons I parted with it: For one thing, it was a DA and I'm not a DA fan. I prefer SAs for defense, and for a playing around gun.

For another, and probably more important, reason for a "just playing around" type of gun, is potential lack of parts or support. When I traded mine off, they had been out of production for six years and that's now approaching twenty years (1993). Plus they never made them that long- four years I think (1990-93)- and they didn't exactly sell millions of them when they did make them. Most parts are standard across the 10MM and .45 ACP models, but some are not. Maybe it would never be a problem, but I'd hate to have a gun I couldn't shoot for need of a new barrel or extractor (although the extractor might be the same) that hasn't been made in many years. Magazines will probably be the first thing in which this would affect you. They are still out there, but not as easily found or as cheap as Glock or 1911 10mm mags. And once you eliminate used mags, the number drops more.

And finally, although maybe not important if you aren't going to carry it: It was just a little bigger than a 1911. I'm not sure in which direction now, but I think it was taller. Again this won't matter much unless carrying, and even then the difference wasn't much. But between it being DA and slightly bigger, the negatives were starting to add up for me.

Glock 20

I wanted one of these since they existed. A 15+1 10MM, designed for the cartridge from the start? What's not to like?

I'll go right to the negatives. The G20 fit my hand terribly. That alone killed it for me. I didn't shoot it much because of that. I got a G29 soon after getting the G20, and it felt better, so I shot it more. I shot the 29 better than the 20 also, because of the grips, so the 20 didn't see much use.

If you want a Glock, make sure the grip will work for you. None of the Glocks fit me the best, but some are more manageable than others. The G20/21 are no-gos for me.

Glock 29

This worked better. The grip circumference may be no smaller than the G20's, but the backstrap hump being moved must make a difference. (I've found that on the G17/19 too- the 17 feels terrible but the 19 is fine because of the hump location.) The result was that I could shoot the smaller G29 better and easier than the big G20. Grip shape matters.

Don't overlook the G29. I think a lot of people do because it gives the impression of being a pocket rocket that's hard to handle. I don't think it's so much small, as small by comparison. It's roughly G19 size, but obviously wider, which puts it about mid-size.

The negatives of the Glock 29. I kept the 29 quite a while. It was the next-to-last Glock I parted with (before the 19). I had a falling out with Glock, and it started right about the time I got the 29. I had been playing with Glocks for a few years and carrying a G19 for a while, when I got the G20 and G29. The G29 was new, and had been sitting on the shop's shelf for over a year with no interest aside from me so I got it for a decent deal. I had bought the 19 used, and was shooting it one day when the trigger return spring broke (standard Glock coil spring). Within two weeks, the trigger return spring broke on the new G29, with maybe 300 rounds through it. Maybe three weeks after that, the Glock replacement trigger return spring in the G19 broke again. Along about this same time, the G29's ejection pattern changed. I found the extractor hook had a chip missing. The extractor chip didn't hurt function really, but on top of the other things made me start getting shaky about Glocks. I had three trigger return springs and a chipped extractor within a month and a half. I never had a serious Glock problem before then, and never had any after. Things happen, and sometimes they happen in strange patterns.

My bad Glock luck was probably over, but it's hard to get that out of your mind, and I never got my confidence back in Glocks after that. I played around with the G29 after that, shot quite a bit although I slowed way down on my Glock usage, and eventually even carried it a little (with an NY trigger spring) but never felt the best about it and stopped carrying it. That, and the fact the 10mm/45 Glocks are so wide, which doesn't change no matter how compact they are otherwise. I traded off the other Glocks I owned except the 19 and 29. Since I had stopped carrying them, I traded them after a few years- first the 29 then the 19 (the 19 is the best Glock IMO, and the 29 might be second best IMO).

So there is my Glock 10MM story, although I'm not sure if it's praise or scorn, or if it helps at all. Overall, I think it's good. [Rant follows: I hate the stock Glock trigger return spring. A coil spring with hooks on the ends puts all the stress/load of the entire spring on the hooks...and when those hooks are hooked into a hole pierced in steel, it doesn't help. It's a bad idea and I knew this before Glocks existed, from growing up on a farm. Go to any farm and look through the scrap heap, and you will find a lot of coil springs from various implements with a hook broke off the end. It's a bad idea there, and it's worse in a gun. I'd later learn this might not happen a lot in Glocks but it's far from uncommon. Rant over.] Aside from that, I liked it. With an NY trigger spring, I'd probably be OK carrying one. The spring is a cheap and easy fix. The chipped extractor thing was mostly harmless if a bit disconcerting at the time.

The grip reductions that are almost common now were new then. I would have liked to have tried it on the G20.

I'd have no problem with one as a fun gun aside from one thing: The fired brass.

As you can tell, I don't hesitate to complain about Glocks, but I always felt the Glock Kaboom/enlarged feed ramp thing was made into a bigger fuss than it should have been. The two 10mms I had made me rethink that.

The fired brass from both of my Glock 10mms was distinctive by the bulge there, but the 29's was pretty slight. The G20, for whatever reason, would spit out some that would get your attention. I don't think I still have any, but if I do, I will take a picture. I tried to throw them all out. I had a case blow out in the Delta Elite about a year ago, and I think it was from being overworked from firing in a Glock and resizing, perhaps more than once. I eliminated everything else. I also went through all my 10mm brass after that and tossed everything suspicious. That's not an experience I want to repeat, and not just because of the burl wood grips that broke in the process.

So yes, I would be happy with a Glock 10mm as a fun gun after a barrel swap to one with a more supported chamber, a grip reduction, and an NY trigger spring. The trigger spring is a cheap fix, but the grip reduction and barrel add up to where it's starting to be a pretty expensive Glock.

Colt Delta Elite.

I wanted one of the originals, missed the boat, and then they got expensive. When Colt announced at the 2009 SHOT Show they were returning, I could hardly wait. Being Colt, it was close to two years before I saw one, which I traded for ASAP. Why it took nearly two years to do what was basically install a 10mm barrel and heavier recoil springs in a Gov't Model is beyond me, but like a lot of things Colt does, can be summed up in two words: That's Colt.

I like it.

I know Colt gained a dismal reputation in the 80s and 90s, but I have three Colts made within the last five years and they are at least as good as any factory 1911 I've owned and better than most. The old reputation is well-earned. The first thing I did when I got a new .38 Super Gov't Model in 2008 was put it next to my mid-90s .38 Super. The flaws in the old gun jumped out when compared that way because the new one was so much better. The Delta Elite is every bit as good, which makes me rather glad I got one now instead of 20 years ago when I wanted one the first time.

When I got the DE, I dug out all the old books and articles I could find on the DE from the 1989-1990 period. I'm not sure what I thought of these articles back then, but I do now.

Not only did they follow the same pattern, they could have been written by the same writer. They ran the same way every time:

Start off describing the 10mm cartridge and comparing it to the .41 Magnum; tell about Colt "saving" the cartridge by introducing the DE which they then describe; shoot less than 300 rounds through the DE; proclaim it unfit to handle the "awesome" 10mm. Each article went the same way, and every range and gunshop expert repeated the same things for 20+ years.

First of all, the 10mm is no .41 Magnum. The "hot" Norma load (which wasn't so much hot as erratic, which is a lot worse) threw a 200 grain bullet 1200 fps. The .41 Magnum does 200 @ 1200 with a yawn. Comparing the 10mm and .41 Mag: The bullets are somewhat close in diameter and the lighter .41 bullets overlap the heavier 10mm bullets, but other than that, they aren't nearly as close as these writers always acted.

This Norma load everyone seemed to base the Delta's longevity on was scarce back then. No Norma ammo was very common, and only the first few lots of Norma 10mm/200 were problematic with the erratic pressures and velocities. That happened six years before the DE came out. Most of it was either recalled, in collector's hands, or shot up by the time the Delta Elite even existed. It took some effort to get any of it into a DE.

Most of those tests didn't include any Norma ammo at all in their DE evaluation, and if they did it was the 170 grain load.

They claimed the DE wouldn't last a thousand rounds, yet the most I read anyone shoot was 300 rounds. This was apparently conjecture based on two things: A change in how the frame was machined, and a change in guide rod material.

Before the Delta, Colt frames would sometimes crack in two places- either the dust cover just ahead of the frame rails, or above the "keyhole" machined for the aft end of the slide stop. The dust cover crack was often blamed on recoil spring buffers that expanded in the course of their job and pushed out on the dust cover. Makes sense. When the recoil buffers lost popularity with the high-volume IPSC shooters, these cracks didn't happen as much, so maybe that was it.

The other one effects the DE story. Before the DE existed, the slide stop cut would sometimes crack from that opening vertically up to the frame rail. Colt solved it, and streamlined machining operations at the same time, by changing that cut from a hole to a slot cut completely up through the rails. They just eliminated the crack area, created a stress relief point, and changed from machining an odd shape to milling a simple slot in one fell swoop. And they did it across the 1911 line around this time. Gunwriters saw it, and decided it was done because the Delta couldn't handle the 10mm. Maybe it would have cracked there, but they missed the point the .45s would too sometimes (and the 38 Supers, and the 9mms) and it was done to guns other than the DE. Colt was cheapening things up, and this was one way of doing it. Another was through the use of plastic, which at this same time started showing up in mainspring housings, trigger shoes, and the part that drew more attention than the frame cut- The guide rod.

The Delta Elite got a plastic recoil spring guide rod. I don't know if all Colt 1911s got it then, but I know some did because I had one. The writers took it as a Delta Elite item because the plastic guide rod appeared with the DE. I think Colt just got cheap at this time. Every DE test made a big deal out of this because the plastic guide rod got beat to death. It either got peened out of shape or cracked lengthwise, and they all took this to mean the 10mm was too much. Well, my .45's plastic guide rod did too, and did it quick, so does that mean the .45 is too much for it?

I found four or five DE articles from back then, and read more at the time, and they all made a big fuss over this guide rod failing. I don't remember reading any other indicator that the 10mm was too much besides this 25 cent guide rod getting beat up. That was all they had to point to, and they did some pointing.

At the time, I wondered if perhaps that plastic guide rod was created for the DE as a sacrificial part- one that would take the beating so the frame and slide wouldn't have to, but be replaced for a buck or two. The fact they used it on .45s also I attributed to them using it because they had it. Now I think it was what it appeared to be all along- a way for Colt to save some money.

FWIW, I still have the original guide rod in my DE. I haven't shot mine a tremendous amount, but a lot more than those testers did. It has over 1800 rounds through it, a lot of which is a handload using a 210 grain cast bullet at around 1270 fps- heavier and faster than the "awesome" Norma 200 grain load that caused so much fear for the DE. The guide rod looks fine. It's face has an imprint of the spring, and that is the only mark on it.

My point is- All that talk back when the delta Elite came out did two things:

It made the 10mm sound more powerful than it was, and created the image that the DE couldn't handle it. The 10mm is plenty powerful, so that one isn't too far off. But I have never seen that much indication that the DE couldn't handle it. I know of several DEs that have been shot heavily and they took it fine. A lot of the Gunsite guys from the 80s and 90s shot them a lot, and they reported none of that short lifespan nonsense. I remember a long time ago one saying that it only lasted something like 200,000 rounds instead of 250,000 like his .45s, but I don't know how serious he was. He might have been telling the facts.

I noticed something about Delta Elites during the time they were only available on the used market. This would have been from around 1995 to 2000 when I would see them in the used counter on a halfway regular basis. Most of them looked really used. Not beat to death and loose/rattly as if they couldn't handle the 10mm, and not wear from carrying without being shot like thin bluing around the muzzle end of the slide either, but wear from shooting. They would have honest wear in places like the grip frontstrap, the grip safety, and slide serrations- places that get worn when handling it when shooting. They seemed to come two ways- either like new and too expensive or worn like that, which is part of why I never bought one.

Interesting they would have so much shooting wear when they can't hold up.

But anyway...

Like I said, I only have around 1800 or so through mine, maybe more because I've let some others shoot it without keeping count. I like it a lot. When I got it, I replaced the plastic mainspring housing for steel, the plastic trigger for a solid aluminum one, and the rubber wraparound grips for wood panels. All mostly due to personal preference.

It did come with only one of the rear sight dots colored white, which I color in with black anyway but I thought it was awful obvious to have been missed.

It's accurate. Function has been fine. One of my moulds casts a bullet a hair under 210 grains, which is really long and seats so deep it sometimes bulges a case with thick walls and they won't chamber easily, but that's to be expected. It's a bit uncommon to encounter a 10mm/.40 bullet that heavy anyway. The other bullet I use most- a 185 cast meant for the .38-40- works fine.

I have loaded a pretty wide range of ammo for it, which in itself has been fun. I've used handloads and factory as light as a 180 at 876 fps, to as fast as a 135 at 1345 fps, to as heavy as the 210 at almost 1300, and it has ate them all up just fine.

Some of those old articles talked about the need for full power ammo for it to function (though they listed no light ones in testing) but I haven't found that to be the case. I didn't try as broad a range with any of my other 10mms, but they handled what I did try.

Some of my .45 magazines will work, though not all. While some 10mm mags hold nine rounds, all my .45 mags that work only hold eight like for .45. I wouldn't carry it with those mags, but it is nice to know for range use.

Useless but interesting fact: Brass gets ejected to about 1:00, and lands in the pretty much the same spot. I don't think I've ever had a pistol that ejected so consistently. If I pick the right spot to stand, I can pick up all my brass without moving my feet.

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Paul I've shot one of these in a 10mm and was pretty impressed. (I'm pretty sure it was this model. It WAS a Kimber)

I think it was a little under a grand. 10mm ammo is NOT even close to being cheap. Or affordable. This is where reloading gets REAL nice. I can load the 10mm for close to the same price as a .40S&W warm load.

Zombie protection? AR15 with a few mags. grin or 12gauge pump and 50 rounds. And a few slugs "just in case"

Or your Mini! That is what I'd be grabbing before a 10mm.

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Ammo cost? Oh, come on. Checking Ammunition To Go, I see 45 ACP 230 FMJ (USA, UMC, Am Eagle) is $18.95 per 50 rounds. 10mm is only...oh...OK, it's $28.95 for 50.

It kinda sucks that practice ammo for 10mm is so high. Hollowpoints are right at a dollar difference in comparable brands/loads.

Yes indeed, reloading is wonderful here.

Some quick figuring just now showed reloaded ammo equivalent to 180 grain FMJ practice ammo (that was $28.95) costs about $7.75 to load. Loading .45 ACP 230 FMJ is more, at about $8.50.

I just came in from the garage from loading some 10mm in fact. When we go to the in-laws soon, the Delta will go. I will take ammo in a variety of levels and types. I could load Cor-Bon 135 JHPs in case we stay in a hotel along the way with paper thin walls, or load some 180 grain cast reloads for a match at the gun club near there, some stout-loaded 210 cast TCs if we go to the national park (might wake up a hibernating bear you know), and carry Silvertips the rest of the time.

Actually I'll carry the HiPower as usual, and other serious duties will hopefully be addressed by real guns (rifles). But the Delta Elite will be there.

Here is something I always liked reading with a Delta Elite in it. No, the Barry telling the story is not me.

I would estimate he shoots about about five times as much ammunition in the story than the 1989 gunwriters did who pronounced them unfit to handle the Ten.

http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/barry4.html

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By the way, if you get into a 10mm 1911...

A lot of the same people who like the 10mm like the .38 Super.

That has to come next for you.

Same thoughts apply (neat round, can shoot bullets fast or slow, ammo is expensive, handloading makes it shine, etc).

CorBon loads a 125 JHP and a 125 DPX that run around 1350 fps. That's real close to the 357 Mag 125 from a 4" revolver (specs say about 1425-1450 fps for the 357, but my chrono says it's more like 1350-1375 from the 4" revolver most carry). With 10 round mags, you have an (almost) 11 shot 357 Mag that's flatter and easier to carry.

Yeah, yeah, the 357 Sig is about the same on paper, but I like the Super in a 1911. The 38 Super was created for the 1911, it feeds better because it is the right length for it, and it's easier to reload for a couple of reasons.

Now the 9x23...that's really nifty.

It makes a nice light display at the muzzle too.

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For a just goofing around gun, the choice for me usually comes down to either the one with the best trigger, sights, and comfortable grip, or, the one I like looking at. It probably is as simple as that.

I wrote a book above mostly to state that reports of 10mm 1911's early demise seem to be greatly exaggerated and I wouldn't let it factor in.

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