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Practically Shooting

9 MM 1911's ??


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Does anyone own and shoot one? I'm toying with the idea of getting one in the future, but I've heard they can be somewhat temperamental as far as ammo, and reliable functioning. Also I've heard they can be finicky with magazines. Springfield Armory makes a really nice Stainless model, and Rock Island Armory also makes them in a couple of different configurations.

The ammo cost is a big plus with them. For someone who really enjoys shooting a 1911, you can do a lot more of it in 9 MM, than with .45 ACP. It is also substantially cheaper to handload for. I've heard nothing but good about the Rock Island guns. Everyone I've talked to who owns one has nothing but praise for both the quality, as well as the functionability of them. Some people shy away from them because they are made in the Philippines, but many of the current line of the Springfield 1911's are made in Brazil by Imbel.

Armscor who manufacturers the Rock Island Armory line is known as one of the top firearms manufacturers in the world. I have also heard that the Philippine Army is outfitted with 1911's built by Armscor. They sure as [censored] represent a fantastic value for the money. Most are priced in the high $300.00 range for the standard Mil-Spec version, to the mid $400.00 price point for the Tactical Models that have the goodies like a skeletonized hammer, and Novak sights.

Anyway, I just wondered if anyone on the board has some 9 MM 1911 experience they could pass along, good or bad. Bill T.

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The only ones I know using them use them for classes (They carry .45s but like the lower cost ammo) or for IDPA Enhanced Service Pistol division. I've seen one, or maybe two at most, Kimbers, but all the others I know about are Springfields.

I have seen some feeding trouble but I've also seen them run like a top. I can't say they all do, but every one of the good-running guns I've asked about used the SA/Metalform magazine with the short "helper" feedramp on the front.

I would get those mags if using any 9mm 1911. The 1911 doesn't like cartridges much shorter than the .45 ACP it was designed for, so can use some help when they are used.

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I'm sorry - no 9mm 1911's. I haven't heard a ton of bad things about them though. I was thinking about getting a 9mm 1911 and converting it to .357Sig.

I have 3 .45ACP 1911's and honestly the cost of ammo doesn't slow me down much. I buy in bulk and buy from local gun chat sites (no tax).

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I've heard of a 357 Sig conversion or two among people I know, but have not actually seen them. The one guy said it wasn't worth messing with because the shorter cartridge didn't feed so well in the 1911 and there were plenty of longer 1911-intended 9mm/.36 cartridges that worked fine and match or bettered 357 Sig ballistics. He was and is a fan of the 9x23, which he said beat the Sig easily with factory Winchester ammo besides feeding fine.

Remember this is secondhand, but from what I've seen with cartridges shorter than 45acp length, I can believe it took some fiddling around for best function. The overall length of the 9mm/40/357sig is only about an eighth of an inch less than the 45acp/38super/10mm but it seems to be enough. And with the 357Sig, the bottleneck means the body of the case leaves the feed lips even earlier, which can't help.

But with a .40 or 10mm base gun, it's an awful simple caliber change to try the 357Sig. Can't argue that.

One of those guys converted a .40 HiPower to 357Sig and it worked well. That always sounded interesting.

But back to the 9x23- Winchester mad ammo for it for a long time, and still did the last I checked. They even made it under the USA brand (my regular gun shop had a bunch of that for quite a while). The guy that likes the 9x23 says even the USA stuff makes 1425-1450 fps and shoots great.

He also says that some guns's 38 Super barrels handle 9x23 without modification. I was thinking about rechambering one of my Supers to 9x23 for a dual-caliber gun but he said I might not have to. I need to borrow some 9x23 ammo from him and try it.

Sorry for the drift. Just trying to throw options out there for Pablo to spend his money on.

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If you want a hot loaded .38 in the 1911, go with the Super .38. The .357 Sig has nothing on it. The .38 Super has been around for ages. Clyde Barrow used it successfully in many of his get aways. It was designed to run in the 1911 platform, and does so very well. Bill T.

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Most factory 38 Super is loaded so pitiful that many 9mm loads beat it. I don't know if it's because a 38 Super cartridge could find it's way into an old .38 ACP gun (same case dimensions) but they keep it watered down like the .44 Spl and others.

Get some CorBon .38 Super ammo, and things look better. CorBon 125 JHP beats their velocity claims in my guns. I've heard the same about GA Arms 38 Super ammo but have never tried any. CorBon's 125 JHP runs 1370-1380 in mine, even though they list it at 1325.

The 357 Sig 125 grain ammo I've tried ran around 1400, so yes, it beats it, but only by about 50 fps on paper and maybe 20 fps over the chrono.

That 20 fps is isn't much, but seldom does anybody want to drop 20 fps. But I would in this case to get a cartridge meant for the 1911. I think it's worth it.

As I said, I've never used any if the GA Arms 38 Super, but I know some like their 147 grain bullet 38 Super load. I don't recall the velocity (1200 fps?) but those heavy bullet people like the Super over the Sig because it handles those bullets better. I think heavy bullets sort if defeat the Super's purpose, but that's just me. I thought I'd mention it though in case you were interested.

The 9x23 may not be the most common but I do see it now and then (even though I wonder why). It won't pass the WalMart ammo test (stocked at WalMart) but the 357 Sig isn't much better.

I just checked Ammunition to Go and they have 9x23 in Winchester Silvertip (50 for 34.95) and CorBon copper bullet DPX (20 for 31.95). This is just me, and you may see it differently, but if it's a fun gun, it doesn't matter too much if I have to order the ammo now and then. Even if it's a carry gun, as long as I have a box or two of spare factory ammo, I'm OK since I reload all the regular practice ammo.

You need to remember that since I reload, I see the importance of cartridge popularity differently. If I have brass and it uses a common bullet diameter, I'm usually in good shape.

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Cartridges like the .38 Super require reloading to achieve their maximum potential. It is much the same with the Weatherby Mark V Magnums. The legal profession has caused ammunition makers to back way down on power levels in factory loaded cartridges. You now have to go to specialty ammo makers like Garrett, Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore and the like, and pay a fortune, for hot loaded factory ammo with some balls.

It is the same with loading manuals. I have Lyman, Speer, and Sierra reloading manuals from the early 70's, and maximum loads were much higher than loads published in the latest manuals. When loaded "to the hilt" the .38 Super can, and in fact does, approach .357 Magnum power levels with the same weight bullet. Bill T.

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I think if they would have based the .357 Sig on the 10 MM Auto case, instead of the .40 S&W, they would have really been on to something. Bill T.

True enough. Hotter than a .357mag!

One thing huge for the 9X23 is the case thickness. Makes me really want to get a .38Super and convert. grin

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The 9x25 Dillon (aka 10mm necked to .355) had just about lived it's short lifespan in IPSC when I started shooting IPSC matches in 1997, but I do remember there being one at one match. It was hard to miss. You could hear it all over the club grounds and pick it out of all the other guns being fired.

I remember reading Rob Leatham say that he loaded it with 90 grain bullets going some ridiculous speed because that used more of the slow-burning powder (I want to say he used AA #9) and therefore produced more gas to run the compensator. He also said that might have ran the compensator TOO well, as the muzzle was driven down so it sort of dipped at each shot and he had to re-time his shooting to use it right. No muzzle flip, but the recoil was there- it just came straight back like shooting a jackhammer.

No, a 90 grain at around 2,000 fps may not be desirable for other things, but it shows the 9x25's impressive capability nonetheless. I think Double Tap loads the 9x25 with a 125 going around 1700 fps or some crazy number. That's getting close to 357-44 B&D or 357 AMP range.

Could be a neat rifle round.

But if a cartridge won't fit in a 9mm-size gun, we'll never see it pushed by any gun company. It has to work in that size gun to get LE interest, and if there is no LE interest there will be little manufacturer interest.

Pablo- If you want to match the .357 Mag/125 JHP with a semiauto cartridge, the 9x23 should be enough. The .38 Super comes close when compared over a chronograph. Although the factories claim around 1450 fps with the 357/125, I get around 1375 over the chronograph at the very most, and sometimes less. This is with a 4" revolver, which gives up a bit compared to a 6" in that load, but I think the 4" is more common on a carry gun. A 9x23 should hit that speed easy in any 5" 1911 (again, probably the most common length in the gun). I have never owned a 9x23 but hear the Winchester factory load gets every bit of the claimed velocity.

The CorBon loads in 38 Super get so close to the 357/125 that the difference hardly matters. I pretty much consider my Supers 10-round 357 Magnums when loaded with CorBon. They just don't have the nasty muzzle blast of the 357/125 in a 4" revolver (I don't miss it!).

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