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Practically Shooting

S&W M&P .22


dnewton3

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I'm considering getting a new semi-auto .22 rifle.

I already have several including a 10/22, a Marlin mdl 60, etc.

But I like the idea of getting an AR style .22 rifle for a training tool for my son.

I have an AR-15 .223 Bushmaster. I like the idea of him training on a very similar weapon in .22LR.

I've read about several AR style .22's including the Remington, the S&W, the Ruger, etc.

What I like about the S&W (only from my reading; I have not held or shot one) is that the S&W M&P .22 is exactly like an AR. All components function exactly as a full AR-15 does. The mag release, the bolt release, the safety are all identical. I read about some other brands last night, and they are similar. But "similar" is not the "same". One of them has a bolt release, but it is cosmetic only; it is there to visually mimic the bolt release, but it actually does nothing. Another has a safety that rotates 180 degrees, rather the the traditional 90 degrees like an AR-15. Sure, they probably will shoot just fine, but my concept was any weapon that functions EXACTLY like an AR-15 will make the transition easier some day. Not that learning other skills of different weapons is a bad thing. I just like the idea of true "same" features. And these items that are truly the "same" are some of the most important physical memory skills needed, if (Lord forbid) it ever came down to his life/death decision some day. The safety, the bolt release, the mag release all being EXACTLY the same will make for good memory retention.

My thoughts are that if the S&W M&P .22 is exactly like the AR-15, the transition some day will be nearly flawless for my son.

So my question is this:

Does anyone have one?

How has it shot?

Is it reliable? (will it cycle without a lot of FTF or stovepipes?, etc?)

What cost did you pay?

Would you recommend to others?

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I have some conversions for other weapons; I have had great success with Ceiner .22lr conversions for my 1911 and Glk 23 pistols.

The only reason I don't really want a conversion for my AR-15 Bushmaster is because it becomes an exclusive relationship; if I'm shooting the AR in .223, then my son cannot be shooting the same lower at the same time with me, as a .22lr. To me, having a seperate rifle allows us to enjoy shooting at the same time.

Why have him start with an exact replica of an AR-15? Well, I don't have any solid "it's just gotta be this way" answer. It's just a preference. Certainly there is a "black gun" appeal to the AR style in many venues, and that applies to people of all ages. My son is 10 years old, and is very good with weapons, from a perspective of healthy safety respect for the item, proper gun handling, and also his skill level.

We aleady have a Ruger 10/22, a Marlin mdl 60, a Rossi pump gun, a Marlin bolt action all in .22 and I was just looking for another rimfire rifle for cheap shooting, that replicated the experience of a military weapon for my son's enjoyment.

I don't "need" this at all; it's a "want". I cannot give you much logical explination, as it's more of an emotional attachment. Black guns (AR style weapons) have a desireable mystique to us. Some people like them, some don't. It's not right or wrong; it's just personal preference.

I just thought it might be fun, both for him and me, to have the fun of shooting an AR platform, with less expense, at the same time.

As near I can tell, only the S&W M&P22 is an exact duplicate, where all controls and parameters function like the AR-15.

I just wondered if anyone here had personal experience with the S&W M&P .22lr. I don't want to purchase it and find out they don't feed well, or have some inherent problem unforseen at the gun store.

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Yes.

Very accurate, using only the iron sights.

Yes, took it straight from the box, shot two bricks of Winchester Wildcat through it, with only one misfire.

$449, back in September; mags are an extra $25 or so each. A mag will last 4-5 seconds.

Not just yes, but heck yes!

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I got to handle one at the store this weekend. Very nicely made, I must say.

Pretty much made up my mind to get one; now just shopping best price. Found them for $405 (plus tax) in KY, but I'd have to drive to get there. To get it locally, I'd offset the fuel cost of driving down by paying about $30 more. So somewhere around $440 out the door would be OK with me.

The local store I saw it at this weekend wanted $475 plus tax; too high. I could drive to KY and get it for less.

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My nextdoor neighbor has a Ceiner .22lr conversion for his AR-15.

It does foul frequently, and eventually will not cycle well. This is one of the driving reasons I want an AR styled weapon that is specifially designed as a .22lr, and not a conversion.

My Ceiner .22lr conversions for my Glock and 1911 have been much more reliable than that AR conversion of my neighbor's.

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Thanks for the info. A friend has one of the ancient and original Atchisson conversions but he's shot it very little.

I can see it being a problem in an AR and not too easy to fix with simple cleaning.

The handgun conversions should work fine. They typically just convert the pistol to a simple blowback action.

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Just got my new S&W M&P-22 at the gun show last night. Very nice looking with a good "feel" to it.

There seem to be two versions floating around. One has a straight barrel, the other has a threaded flash hider. I have found the straight version for just a hair over $400. I paid $450 for mine with the threaded barrell. It was worth the extra money for me, because I can remove the hider and put on my suppressor and shoot sub-sonic ammo.

I have to work today, so perhaps I'll get a chance to shoot later this weekend. I'll keep all informed.

Also, searched for additional mags for the little .22, and found that S&W has them on their site for $20, which is no more or less than anywhere else I could find on the net. I got two more on the way. Factory mags are the one thing that I often seem to find work best. With aftermarket mags, you might get a great deal on a fine product, or you might get hosed; I've had it go both ways.

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Here's my update.

Got to shoot the M&P .22 over the weekend. Put about 600 rounds through it. A few notes.

Very high quality and well made. While it was expensive, compared to other semi-autos such as a Ruger 10/22, I can say that the workmanship and design are very, very nice.

Supposedly, these come with "match grade" barrels. I cannot prove that out yet, as all I did was shoot off-hand, but the thing certainly does hold it's own! This spring, when I can actually sit outside without freezing my buns off, I'll do a true accuracy check. But it's certainly good enough for plinking at this point.

Functioned flawlessly. The only time I had problems was with sub-sonic ammo (Remington). The owner's manual specifically states that sub-sonic ammo of any brand is not to be used. Not that it's detrimental to the weapon, but because it simply does not have enough "omppf" to reliably cycle the action. The bulk of what I shot was bulk Federal ammo; the kind that you can get a Wally World in those boxed 550-count containers. Ran the whole box through and no issues at all; says a lot for both the ammo and the gun.

Very easy to get multiple cycles shot on target. Double and tripple-tap shots would ring the metal plates I shoot at!

My son had a great time with it as well. Very easy for him to handle. The adjustable stock length allows for easy LOP adjustments. To say he was enjoying himself is an understatement.

Overall, I am very pleased! It was a bit expensive for a .22, but I'm happy, and I guess that is what counts.

I would also say this; there are two versions going around, as I had previously indicated. One has a straight barrel end, the other has a threaded end with a flash hider. I had hoped that the gun would cycle sub-sonic ammo, and that the threaded end would be useful to mount the suppressor; it was not to be. In hindsight, I would have been better off with the straight barrel, and just saving the $50. But, you never know until you try, right?

I would recommend this gun to anyone seeking a fun gun, and/or a training gun (to move up to an AR-15 someday). It's a bit expensive for a plinker (versus say a Marlin mld 60, or a Ruger 10/22), but I see this gun as a want and not a need, and therefore some amount of logic is ignored and a nod goes to desire. The quality and function are awesome.

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  • 1 month later...

Another update.

Nothing but compliments for the S&W M&P .22lr weapon!

We've probably put 3k rounds through it over the past two months. It cycles flawlessly. The rare occastion of not cycling is attributed to your typical rimfire causes; low charge, poor quality round, etc.

I have a friend who has a KelTec SU-22 and it's nice as well, but for the extra $100, even he admits likes the S&W.

One note; I did pay an extra $50 for the factory threaded barrell with the factor flash suppressor. If I had to do it over, I would have forgone this option. The only reason I wanted it was to try to shoot it with my sound supporessor installed. But the sub-sonic ammo simply does not have the ompf to cycle the action, so using it is worthless and too much of a pain. Therefore, I would have had just as much fun with the non-threaded version, and saved the money. But that is not the weapons fault. It clearly states in the owner's manual that the use of ANY sub-sonic ammo is not advised. This weapon simply is not designed to function with such low pressures; it won't cycle reliably.

It really does not shoot any straighter than my Marlin mdl 60, and those things are very reasonable price wise. But for those that want a "black gun" for the sake of joy, I cannot commend the S&W any more than the pure joy it is to shoot.

Maintenance is also pure simple joy. While a 10/22 or Marlin have to be unscrewed and are somewhat of a pain to get the bolt out, the M&P is literally as simple as an AR, after which it is styled. The pins that hold the upper receiver to the lower have captive pins, so you just push the rear pin sideways, tip up the receiver, and pull out the bolt assembly. Done. Brush and swab, wipe and lube, and reassemble. VERY easy.

Kudo's to S&W on this one; I am pleased that I spent the extra money on it over it's competitors.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Yet another update:

This gun rocks.

We have almost 6k rounds through it (put almost 1k rounds just this past weekend!).

The FTFs are almost non-existent (probably more ammo than gun anyway).

The breakdown and cleaning are super simple. This alone beats a Marlin Mdl 60 or 10/22 any day of the week! As much as we shoot, and subsequently clean, this wins hands down.

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  • 5 months later...

Yet another update ...

I guess you could call this a boring note, because there is nothing out of the ordinary to report.

By "ordinary" I mean the following:

After more than 10,000 rounds, this firearm has continued to function flawlessly, puts rounds on target with amazing clarity even after hundreds of dirty .22 have been shot through it, and strips/cleans easily. The magazines (factory S&W of which I have three) all cycle with no hint of binding. This gun flat works, and was worth every penny I spent on it. I find myself leaving all the other .22 rifles in the vault when this comes out to play. I haven't shot my Mdl 60 Marlin or 10/22 much at all; it's all about the M&P-15/22!

One day in particular, we shot 1100 rounds (two 550 rnd boxes) in just a few hours. We did get a few failures, but those were ammo related and not due to the weapon; typical of bulk factory ammo for .22lr, as everyone knows. Other than that, we ran those two boxes almost non-stop! Three guys (one mag each) shooting and we rotated shooting a mag while the other two loaded as quickly as we could. The barrel got hot, for sure, but the gun just kept running! And, you cannot discount the fun of a "black gun" because this thing mimics an AR 100% in every function. Great training aid for my son to step up to a .223 some day!

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  • 11 months later...

And the story continues.

Man - we shoot this gun more than any other, particularly because my son likes to handle a black-gun, and it's cheap.

I've lost count, but we're easily over 25k rounds now. I do clean the weapon each time we're done, so there is no significant build up anywhere on it.

I cannot find enough superlatives to say how impressed I am with this little .22.

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I have some thoughts (imagine that).

I wanted a .22 AR and really wanted a dedicated .22 upper like a Spikes Tactical. They cost so much that kept getting put off. When the S&W and Colt .22 ARs came out, I headed to the gun shop. I was ready to buy.

I looked at the Colt, and as I kept finding small differences between it and a 5.56 (no charging handle latch, the selector was shaped differently and I think moved differently). That, to me, meant it wouldn't work as well as I thought as a .22 practice gun. The S&W's polymer receiver made it feel different than a 5.56 to me, and I didn't like that so much either.

Then I saw the CMMG conversion units, which were just under $200 at the time. I thought it was worth a try.

One of the guys there (pretty good guy) had one and told me to expect it to choke about half the time on the first magazine full, maybe a quarter of Tge time with the next, three or four on the third, then it should run fine. And Tgat is almost exactly how it went. It functions just fine now, but I do need to oil it up after about 100 rounds or so to keep it that way.

Accuracy was terrible in the first barrel I tried it in. I tried another barrel and it shot fine. The barrels were the same maker and twist, but one made eight inch groups at 50 yards and the other did 1.5".

Guns do what they do.

It does 1.5-2" with most stuff at 50, which is not what a dedicated .22 upper will do. I thought about that, and what I wanted it for, and decided that was plenty. I wanted it for a cheap shooting practice tool for my home defense rifle. It mostly gets used at 15 yards or less, and 50 yards at the most. It stays well within any target I use at those ranges. If I need more accuracy from a .22, I have other tools for that. I am willing to sacrifice a little accuracy in this case in order to have a .22 trainer that comes closer to the 5.56 rifle (because it's the same trigger, stock, etc). The biggest difference in training use is the charging handle travel and the fact the bolt doesn't stay locked open when the magazine is removed. I whack the bolt stop anyway after a mag change, but the short charging handle pull still feels odd.

And the big advantage: If I were still holding out to afford a Spike's Tactical, I'd still be waiting. As it is, I've been using it for a couple of years.

So to me, that's what it comes down to. If you want the most accurate rifle because you will be using it as such, get a dedicated .22 rifle or upper. If you want it as a trainer/practice rifle for a 5.56, I'd say get the conversion unit.

I have seen the CMMG unit for less since. CDNN will put it on sale now and then for $150, and that includes a second mag. If you allow even $20 for the magazine's value, you are getting the unit for $130. Pretty cheap. They usually have it in stainless or park'd too.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There is another option brand now for a .22 conversion upper: Chiappa.

http://store.chiappafirearms.com/product...ersion-kit.html

right now, $299 for a full conversion upper, with mags. I read a decent write-up on the full gun version (it's available as both a full weapon and a conversion upper that fits on any AR lower).

supposed to be pretty nice, but I've not ever shot one.

My shootin' buddy has been so impressed with my M&P15-22 that he just got one for $450. Identical to mine. Except that he's probably 30k rounds behind me by now ... At this time of year, we shoot nearly every day! Going to be setting up an o-course with the steel targets as one station.

I think no one would ever be disappointed with the S&W 15-22. It's a high quality piece, with a great trigger, and functions better than any .22 semi I've ever had, it's super easy to clean (can't say that about my Marlin or 10-22.

The Chiappa might be worth a try for $150 less money. If it cycles and shoots well, it's a great conversion where those that already have a AR can reduce costs. My neighbor has a Ceiner .22 conversion for his AR, and frankly, it is not impressive.

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  • 8 months later...

Update:

mad Sadly the strong and steady M&P15-22 has seen it's first real failure. The extractor disappeared. As in Gone! Seems to be a matter of some repute upon internet search. I'd never heard of it until it happened to me and I had to search the topic. The extractor, the pin, etc are all missing. The clue was that the empty rounds started to intermittenly not be fully thrown out and clear the port. Often, the bolt would come forward and close upon the reversed, rear facing case (obviously because of the missing extractor). Oddly, about only 2 of 5 will fail to be ejected; I presume the simple blowback operation is enough to make the shell go back and hit the ejector much of the time.

After probably 35k rounds, I don't know that I should be suprised given the abuse we heap upon it. Well - not true abuse, be we are not easy on this weapon. We run it hard and hot and it has been flawless until now. It is not uncommon for us to run an entire box of 550 bulk rounds in one outing.

There is no "parts list" that I can find; not in the manual, not on their site, not on the net. However, many reports are that if the bolt is sent in, they will repair it and get quick turn-around. (probably enough problems that it's become a good will gesture on the part of S&W).

Time will tell. I'll keep you informed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update:

S&W is willing to warrant it; that's the good news.

The bad news is that I have to send the entire rifle back. How goofy is that? The extractor, spring and pin are missing from the bolt, but instead of sending them the bolt, I have to send them the entire rifle? Then the rep (I'll withhold his name at this point) tells me that the extractor is not a "drop in part" and must be fit to the bolt. He says that guns are items that must have a meticulous fit and the parts are not easily exchangeable. Really? I'm incredulous at this point! Am I to believe every single M&P rifle is hand built and fit? Seriously? I mentioned to him that (being a Glock and Armalite certified armorer) I find that VERY hard to believe. I would reckon we all would agree that most mass-produced firearms are actually very "modular" in their part interchangability. I know for sure that any authorized Glock part is a drop in for the matching part.

I can understand their position; perhaps they want to function test it before returning it. But couldn't they take my bolt, replace the missing parts, test fire it in a company rifle, and return the bolt? WHY DO THEY NEED THE WHOLE RIFLE?

Here's part of the problem; I live in the boondocks. WAY out there. So much so that you actually have to drive over a creek to get onto my property. As you can imagine, there is no home USPS mail delivery; we have a PO BOX. But FedEx (S&W's chosen carrier) will not deliver to a PO BOX, nor will the Postal Service accept personal delivers from 3rd party carriers. Unfortunately, FedEx also has the (well-earned) reputation of not being able to find my home. So, I have yet to recieve the shipping authorization even though it's been almost two weeks, and that REALLY makes me wonder if they will be able to return the rifle AFTER its been repaired. If S&W would utilize my PO BOX, and only repair JUST the bolt, then we could send the stuff via USPS. You can send non-registered gun parts via the mail. That way, the part would not be in the ABYSS of FedEX. Or, if they were to only work on the bolt, I could have it sent to my wife's workplace, but I surely cannot have an entire weapon sent to my wife's workplace (a bank).

What a PITA. Larger parts = more shipping costs, etc. Why not just accept the bolt?

In fact, why is there not a parts diagram and parts list? Are they going to NEVER put out parts to the public for the M&P?

If they make it right, I guess I should quit complaining, but why to they have to make it so darn hard?

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When I had to return my SW1911 recently, they sent a prepaid shipping label by email. I just printed it off and taped it to the box.

Oddly, it did take about a week to email the label, so I wouldn't be too surprised to find they took a week or more to get yours sent.

Gun companies are keeping a closer guard on parts and services all the time. They want more and more control. Ruger was tight with selling some safety parts 20 years ago, and its gotten worse by all since then.

Is there an authorized FedEx place around? A Kinko's? Even if not very close, someplace you get to now and then might work if you leave the box in your car and drop it off when you happen to be there. It might be easier in the long run than getting them to pickup..

At my nearest UPS agent, if it has a label, they just take the package and say thanks. At the FedEx one, they sometimes make me fill out a form, which isn't too bad, but an unnecessary pain I think. Sometimes they just take it like UPS. It depends on who is there that day.

The bad thing about using them instead of a full-blown Fedex company place is they don't know the rules well. If you do go that route, it has helped me to print off their own firearms shipping rules to take with me. One guy claimed there was no way they could ship any gun from an individual, until I produced his own regs saying either the sender or the recipient- even just one- had to be an FFL holder. With a long gun box, even with a disguised address like "SW Inc" they will suspect it's a gun and might get flaky about it.

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Those bozo's sent the FedEx prepaid label to my home address; I don't get home mail delivery. I had the good luck to be able to track the mail down before it was returned at the Post Office. What a bunch of goobers; in my email to S&W, I expressely told them not to send anything to my home. I also told "Joe" when I had him on the phone last week. And yet they sent the label via US Postal service to my home anyway, so it got rejected as undeliverable. No matter how much you explain things at times, people are just dumb. They get into a rut, and don't (or can't) think outside the box.

Once I got the label in hand, I was OK. I found a shipping center near me (right down the road from where I work) and sent the rifle last Friday. Oddly - they cannot recieve the rifle back once it's ready for return at a FedEx "Service Center"; how bizzare is that? But, there is a FedEx "Office" center that can receive and hold the item for "customer pick-up" down the road in the opposite direction, so I'm going to use that. I drove over there and spoke with the manager myself so that I was confident they could recieve and hold the gun. I used the words "gun", "firearm" and "rifle" a few times so that there wold be no misunderstanding, and she assured me they can both receive it and hold for my pickup. She seems very knowledgeable about it, although she said she's not done one yet (it's a newer location). If this goes well, they just earned a loyal customer.

For the box, I got a 17"x17"x7" FedEx box and used that. I broke the gun down (separated upper and lower) and it all fit nicely (upper had to go in diagonally). Bolt group in a heavy duty zip-loc baggie. Entire box stuffed tight with wadded newspaper. Should be safe.

What a PITA. Shame that it's got to be so hard. Spoils what otherwise should be a customer-focused experience. "Customer Service" is pretty much a thing of the past, IMO. It's become "Customer Tolerance" at best for many companies. S&W is making me jump through hoops to fix their product. There's something just inherently wrong with that concept.

I hope it gets done soon; I'd like to have it back the 4th of July for a big shoot we plan to have. I also hope that they just don't replace the parts with no thought as to the cause. I don't want this experience again. I'd like to believe there is some type of improvment afoot; not just the same parts reinstalled. Deeper pin pocket; stronger pin; bigger pin; something that makes me believe it won't happen again. Time will tell.

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