Army Says Stop Using PMags

[BarryinIN]

The following is what I got, how I got it. I have no idea if its genuine. I do know- and this is very important- that some members of the military have been using the term "PMag" generically. They call any non-aluminum magazine a "PMag" just like calling every soft drink a Coke. I know this because I heard a couple of years back, the Marine Corps almost did the same thing and banned PMags, but after assigning someone to investigate the issue they found that what many were calling PMags were Thermolds, Orlites, Lancers, and other crap that was actually the problem gear.

So I don't think I'd base anything on this.

I like the AR system. I am not the biggest fan of the aluminum mags. I like PMags. I have doubts they aren't working out as well as GI alum mags. If this following notice is real, and if the decision was made without a proper investigation, I...Well, I don't know what to say.

*****************************

TACOM LCMC MI 12-021 M4-M16 Improved Magazine and the Use of Commercial

Magazines

Originator: /C=US/O=U.S.

GOVERNMENT/OU=DOD/OU=ARMY/OU=ORGANIZATIONS/L=CONUS/L=WARREN

MI/OU=TACOM/OU=TACOM SAFETYOFUSE(UC)

DTG: 301307Z Apr 12

Precedence: PRIORITY

DAC: General

//UNCLASSIFIED//

Subject: Maintenance Information (MI) Message, TACOM Life Cycle Management

Command, (TACOM LCMC) Control No. MI: 12-039, M4/M16 Improved Magazine NSN

1005-01-561-7200, Part Number: 13021312, Cage Code: 19200, Old Magazine

NSN 1005-00-921-5004, Part Number: 2411362962382, Cage Code: 13629, and

the use of commercial magazines. End Items: M16A2 NSN 1005-01-128-9936,

M16A3 NSN 1005-01-357-5112, M16A4 NSN 1005-01-383-2872, M4 NSN

1005-01-231-0973, and M4A1 NSN 1005-01-382-0953.

1. Distribution:

a. This is a Maintenance Information (MI) Message. Commanders/Directors of

Army Commands (ACOM)/Army Service Component Commands (ASCC)/Direct

Reporting Units (DRU), Army National Guard (ARNG), US Army Reserve (USAR)

Command, US Navy (USN), US Air Force (USAF), US Marine Corps (USMC) and

other Service Commanders and Responsible Offices will retransmit this

message to all subordinate Commanders/Activities.

b. This message will be available on the Safety First Web Site located on

the TACOM Unique Logistics Support Applications (TULSA) portal within

twenty-four hours of transmission. Access to the Safety First Web Site

requires CAC Card authentication. You must first request access to the

Safety First Web Site. To request access click here

https://tulsa.tacom.army.mil. For assistance, email the TULSA Helpdesk at

[email protected]. The Safety First Web Site also has the

capability to email Safety and Maintenance messages directly to your

inbox.

To subscribe to the mailing list, click on, E-Mail Subscriptions, on the

Navigation bar.

2. Issue: TACOM has become aware of units ordering 30 rd. commercial (i.e.

polymer, etc.) magazines for their M4/M16 family of weapons. The M4/M16

Army authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200

(improved magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until

exhaustion).

3. User Actions: TM 9-1005-319-10, the Additional Authorized List (AAL),

states that NSN 1005-00-921-5004 is authorized, as well as NSN

1005-00-561-7200. Units may use the older magazine NSN 1005-00-921-5004

with the green follower until exhausted. The improved magazine is

available in stock, NSN 1005-00-561-7200, and has a tan follower. The

improved magazine features an improved follower and follower spring. These

new features help to reduce the risk of magazine-related stoppages. Units

are only authorized to use the Army authorized magazines listed in the

technical manuals. Remember; "tan-is the plan, green-start to lean,

black-take it back." Magazines with the black follower are the oldest and

should be turned in to your unit supply sergeant or local supply point.

4. Unit Commanders, contact your local TACOM LCMC Logistics Assistance

Representative (LAR) or your State Surface Maintenance Manager upon receipt of this message for assistance. For assistance in locating your

TACOM LCMC LAR, see below.

[BarryinIN]

Army now says "never mind":

The Pentagon has clarified the Army's stance on a recent safety message

that effectively banned a certain high-performance, commercial M4

magazine, which means soldiers can keep using their PMAGs.

The confusion began when Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle

Management Command issued a message in April, declaring that the only

government-issued aluminum magazines were authorized for use in the M4

and M16 rifles.

TACOM officials released the message to address reports of Army units

using "unauthorized" commercial, polymer magazines such as the popular

PMAG, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp., in 2007. The decision left

combat troops puzzled, since the PMAG has demonstrated its extreme

reliability in combat and has an Army-approved national stock number,

which allows units to order them through the Army supply system.

Army officials acknowledged June 6 that TACOM's message was poorly

written and not intended as a directive on the use of PMAGs. Matthew

Bourke, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon responding to questions from

Mililtary.com, said the message should have included guidance that the

final decision rests with commanders in the field.

"At best, the message is incomplete; at worst the message allows

soldiers to jump to the wrong conclusions," Bourke said. "Maintenance

Information Messages [from TACOM] are permissive. They are not an order.

They are not a directive. All content and direction in those messages

are optional for the recipient."

It's still unclear why TACOM issued the message at this time, but

sources say it might have something to do with the $10.7 million

contract TACOM Rock Island awarded to Brownells Inc. in 2009 to produce

1.4 million improved magazines by January 2010.

Program Executive Office Soldier set out to develop the improved

magazine after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a

2007 reliability test. The "dust test" revealed that 27 percent of the

M4's stoppages were magazine related.

The improved magazine uses a redesigned "follower," the part that sits

on the magazine's internal spring and feeds the rounds into the M4's

upper receiver. The new tan-colored follower features an extended rear

leg and modified bullet protrusion for improved round stacking and

orientation. The self-leveling/anti-tilt follower reduces the risk of

magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older

magazine variants, PEO Soldier officials maintain.

In late May, Military.com asked PEO Soldier if weapons officials had

tested to see how the improved magazine performs against the PMAG. The

command responded through Army public affairs that weapons officials had

conducted "limited side-by-side testing and found that no commercial

magazine was superior to the improved magazine," Bourke said.

By contrast, PMAGs have developed a word-of-mouth reputation for being

extremely reliable as well as durable. Special operations units such as

Army's 75th Ranger Regiment issue PMAGs as do many infantry units before

war-zone deployments

Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been

issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that

year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that

lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some

soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

Army officials maintain that TACOM's message was intended to make

soldiers aware that not all commercial magazines have gone through the

same testing as the improved magazine, but concede that there are

exceptions.

[Pablo]

Amazing they order from Brownells!

Anyway. Reading between the lines, the M4 is pretty darn reliable.

The M400 comes with an Al mag. Seems like the only cheap part of the gun. A local gun shop has a sale on Magpul PMags!

[BarryinIN]

Yeah, I think the M4 is a lot more reliable than some people think. Some of the failures in classes show that, believe it or not. Some of those failures come from parts that you can see have been broken for a while but didn't completely fail until then. They lasted who knows how long when cracked, or bent, or whatever. It's almost funny to see people argue over how to stagger gas ring gaps after seeing a couple of guns run with one good ring, one broken, and one mostly missing. They are more forgiving of more things than some think.

I don't worry too much over what mag a new AR comes with. I probably should, but the selection and price for AR mags is better than even 1911 mags so I'd be buying a bunch that I like anyway.

PMags are all over for $14.20 and alum for less (Brownells does seem to be the top choice there). If they come with a PMag or better polymer or Colt or Brownells alum, that's a bonus.

I am curious who makes the mag Sig uses. When bought in volume, Brownells sells them for under $10 each, so I don't know why any maker would choose anything else if buying alum.

PM on the way with a couple of mag sources.

[BarryinIN]

FYI to anyone:

Rainier Arms is having a sale on Tango Down ARC mags. I have played with them, but never owned any before. They have some advantages that I think are mostly theoretical, but do make sense. When these came out, they were running around $28 but have come down to about $21 most places. The Rainier Arms sale price is $14.95, and since I was going to order some more PMags anyway, I went ahead annd spent a few more cents to try a few ARCs.

Two things:

1) Mine arrived two days after ordering (Monday to Wednesday) which I thought was pretty good for Washington state to Indiana. Shipping was $7.95, which, considering the box of stuff I ordered, not too bad.

2) Tango Down has a Mark II version out, or coming out. These will have a slight follower change from what I understand. They have "MK2" molded into the side in pretty clear view.

What came were the original style. Just in case it is important to anyone.

If interested:

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1388

[Tom]

An update came out today stating the Army retracts the PMAG ban.

[BarryinIN]

I didn't see that. Different from the second post above?

[BarryinIN]

The M400 comes with an Al mag. Seems like the only cheap part of the gun.

Sig makes a poly AR mag, so it's kinda curious they don't use those.

[Pablo]

The Enhanced M400 comes with a PMag

[Tom]

I didn't see that. Different from the second post above?

Same info, mine came from a different source. Funny that military.com is just now reporting something over a week old.

[BarryinIN]

I got it from a direct but indirect source, but I could easily believe they would issue another statement (same or otherwise) so didn't know if it was the same or not.